parking ticket on LL, ?120 ...

[kford]

My figures were from last week: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7291810.stm

The complaints are about the unfair victimisation of motorists who know the rules, but being human, occasionally make errors when parking yet are given draconian punishments way out of line with the 'crime'.

[bignumber5]

This all seems to be covering similar ground to the littering/cigar-butt thread, and a previous one on traffic wardens - do something naughty, get caught, get fined, throw tantrum.

We all hate it at the time, but I think the major part of getting angry is because we either didn't think we'd get caught, or just think we're above this particular law because of specific circumstances. Generally speaking, we're not... however cathartic a good "over-zealous traffic warden" rant might be.

[kford]

On the subject of this particular thread, you're possibly right bn5 - but the general rants here are about the heavy-handed tactics employed by councils in their pursuit of fines to boost their coffers.

[annaj]

I've been lurking on this one, but thought I'd jump in and have my say, because it's just so ridiculous to say someone can't have an opinion if they don't drive.

Until December last year I lived car-free in London and happily used public transport every day. In December my job moved and I had the choice to move or get a car, so I reluctantly got a car. I now drive at least five days a week in London, so I hope I am permitted to have an opinion. I also work a 48 hour week in a South London emergency department, so I think I can relate to having a busy, stressful lifestyle.

I have never had a parking ticket or any other kind of fine, because I follow the rules of the road. I'm not perfect, obviously, and can't say I've never slipped over the speed limit drving home from a late shift, but for the most part I'm a careful driver who follows the rules. However busy I am I really don't find it that challenging to work out where I am allowed to park and I don't park where I'm not allowed. It's a simple system, but it works for me and as I say, I've never had a parking ticket.

Also, although I appreciate the convienience of my car for work (a half hour drive compared with the two hours it would take me each way on public transport) I still don't use it for short journeys that I can easily do on foot or public transport. Party because of the whole environmental thing, but also because I really don't enjoy driving and the main reason I don't enjoy driving is the number of other dirvers on the road who behave like the rules don't apply to them.

As for the original topic, as BN5 said, break rules, get caught, get fined. Very simple.

[annaj]

PS. Just read my post back and realised it sounded like I coming down hard on parking, but advocating speeding.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that speeding is ok, it definitely is not. I only mentioned it to try and show that I realise we're all human and prone to mistakes. I never knowingly speed and on the rare occasions where I do find myself drifting over the limit, I slow down as soon as I realise.

[seanmlow]

''This all seems to be covering similar ground to the littering/cigar-butt thread, and a previous one on traffic wardens - do something naughty, get caught, get fined, throw tantrum.''

It is not tantrum throwing - but a discussion!

People just don't like the tactics used by the council - if they could see the RESULTS after these fines have been processed. As I said before, the streets still have shi* on them, potholes in the road, itimidating yobs by the station.

But STOP PRESS - Lilly was illegally parked!

[vivienne]

Goodness! what about getting fined ?75 for putting an A4 community event notice on a post?

[seanmlow]

vivienne - are you serious?

This just gets more insane every day!

[bignumber5]

kford Wrote:

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> Sean, - read ratpack's email again. That's what

> it's like if you drive in London, even very

> occasionally, like I do. Even the most careful

> motorist will get caught out. You say you don't

> anymore, so you can't really comment.

I hate to come down hard, but kford I do beleive you are talking out of your arse here - seanmac might not drive at the moment, but he pays his taxes, he spends a butt-load on transport that goes to the coffers, I'd say he's entitled to "comment". Democracy, you see.

[SeanMacGabhann]

BN5 - cheers for the support but I've all but given up on this one - logic and reason seem to play little part

As one of the people who has made a decision to not drive in London in part based upon the proliferation of both a) other drivers and b) the all-round hassle of driving in London I would say I was more than suitably positioned to comment on conditions in London - but as I also said for some people it's not longer about motoring - it's just some conspiracy theory about revenue-raising.

Annaj posited a good example of someone who drives but cares enough to not feel they own the highway or that the council is out to get them - and I suspect that she represents the voice of many

But lacking from some posters is what, instead of stiff financial penalties, they would use to curb increasing traffic and increasing congestion. But then again, according to some people there isn't really a problem

[blinder999]

kford Wrote:

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> By the way, plenty of people 'forget' to pay their

> TfL fares without recompense - figures out last

> week suggest that fare-dodging accounts for a

> whopping ?52.3m lost in 2007, including ?6.4m on

> bloody bendy buses alone. Why not go after them?

> Fine them ?120, it's a more direct theft of money

> that would otherwise be used to expand transport

> in London. Oh, no, that would be too hard - these

> people are too hard to track down, not wearing

> number plates and being registered to DVLA and all

> that.

>

from the Thisislondon boards (just to point out that fare evaders do appear to get some attention from the hobby bobbies) :

"When my daughter left her East Dulwich, South London home today, August 22nd she was looking forward to attending her friendly, therapeutic yoga class. Little did she know that the London Transport had their own plans for her that were far from friendly or therapeutic! Anita, like many Londoners, uses public transport and regularly purchases the local travel card, the Oyster Card, for use on the London Underground, bus routes, etc.

On arrival at Elephant & Castle, Central London and alighting from the bus, she and the other passengers were met by a hoard of Community Police Officers, who proceeded in pairs, to question each passenger about their tickets or travel cards. What ever happened to Ticket Inspectors? Anita was surprised to hear that her Oyster Card had not registered her fare. The officers announced that she had not paid the bus fare, to which Anita replied that no - she was sure she had, because she had swiped the card on entering the bus and felt sure it had registered. This was of no importance though

and the officers rudely informed Anita that she would be fined ?20.00 for fare evasion. Anita objected and explained that her Oyster Card was valid and there was enough money on it to cover the fare. How could she know if the machine on the bus worked properly? The officers did not care and demanded to know where Anita lives- her full name and address, which she told them. They asked her for ID. They then asked if she shared her flat with anyone, who that person might be and who else lived in the building! Anita was annoyed by this intrusion and refused to tell them. She tried to explain that she had an appointment to keep but the Community Officers told her to stay where she was and said they would take as long as they liked, they then beckoned to two uniformed Police Officers nearby. Anita looked around, other people were just quietly giving their details without complaint.

Anita asked why they were involving the police and one of the Community Officers told her ?don?t get funny with me.? Anita, still pleading her innocence, was then surrounded by the four officers and the

two policemen told her to ?shut up and stop causing trouble? or they would throw her in the back of a paddy wagon and take her to the station for questioning. Passers-by were stopping and staring, and Anita felt very intimidated and afraid. She took a few steps back and the police moved forward towards her, she then tried to walk away and was followed by the uniformed police. Would she be tased? Anita asked if they were shadowing her and they told her to behave and ?move along, we?re watching you.? She walked away from them.

Her day ruined and in tears, Anita missed the yoga class and returned home in shock to go over the experience again in her head. How could this have happened, what is going on here? Anita is law-abiding, tax-paying citizen, she has no criminal record and has never been in any sort of trouble but now fears that her details will be going on a secret data-base, something she had hoped to somehow avoid. She and her friends suspect that the purpose of this exercise is more about gathering information on citizens than collecting money. "

[kford]

Shit! That's appalling, and heavy-handed. Where are they when the gangs of youths climb aboard the back of the 36 bendy-bus, with no intention of swiping their card? She sounds like the perfect collar - female, non-confrontional, willing to pay eventually, without hassle or arrest or court.

She should've driven.

[kford]

And sean and co., councils really do see parking fines as revenue. They've been rumbled again and again, with scams such as paying incentives to PAs (Parking Attendants) and operating companies, like APCOA. You're naive to think that it's all about 'parking solutions'. I've worked with TfL who were secretly shocked at the cavalier behaviour of some local authorities regarding PCNs (although TfL seemed to operate their bus lane and Red Route patrols fairly). PAs in Kensington & Chelsea were even specially instructed to target BT vans, as BT employed someone especially to pay the fines; strangely, they warned the same PAs to leave Cable & Wireless/NTL vans alone. Bonkers.

[????]

er Sean, you don't half think in black and white fella, i drove my car for the first time today in probably a month I get the bus into work daily, do you think that motorists are a seperate breed of people who never venture onto public transport and spend their whole time clogging up London deliberately? Once more I see you are putting yourself up as the best to comment on an issue because 'you gave up your car'...bully for you, you got kids or a mum who lives in the country you want to go and see most weekends? i have no problem with controlled traffic including parking restrictions, I have a massive problem with the council sticking bays in my street which apart from occasionally on a Saturday has no real parking problems, then charging me ?X for a permit for parking outside my house, which I pay council tax on, on a road, that I pay road tax for, before letting loose their hitlers on visiting friends, or me id my permit slides off the window or my wheels are an inch into another bay....and having the gall to pretend that this has anything to do with managing traffic. IT HASN'T, ITS POLITICIANS TRYING TO RAISE MONEY....

[SeanMacGabhann]

so many points - so little point

Quids, i have never said the 2 groups are exclusive. A large vocal group of people are often heard on the media saying they will never give up the car or use public transport but I don't think I have accused anyone of that here?

I'm sure many people will nod along to that but naturally I take issue with it. I did say I gave up the car but ONLY as a rebuttal to the suggestion that as a non-driver my opinion didn't count. Equally, I never said it was A Good Thing in and of itself - but if you think it is for "the best" then thanks for the kind words

The revenue thing: once again I stand accused of being naive - when I have already said:

I suspect it is raising revenue

If revenue-raising is a SUCH an issue, time and time I ask the question - how would YOU or anyone else better manage traffic??

Your last point is presumably about CPZs - I'm neutral either way. Judging by the threads where this has been a hot topic, people who drive and want a parking space are divided about the issue - it's not anything to do with cars v public transport

kford said:

you mean some people think themselves above the law?? shocking isn't it - but isn't that how the thread started? DO you reckon those youths sit at the back of the bus complaining about the revenue inspectors just being a revenue raiser for the council?

It's obvious there are 2 camps here but I generally don't care about that. But people who complain without at least coming up with a solution will always have a special place in my heart

[seanmlow]

can we remember there are two Seans on here!

[SeanMacGabhann]

hey that's my line seanmlow ;-)

(I'm actually amazed this one hasn't been lounged yet - is it still ED specific?)

[BJL]

kford Wrote:

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> And sean and co., councils really do see parking

> fines as revenue. They've been rumbled again and

> again, with scams such as paying incentives to PAs

> (Parking Attendants) and operating companies,

To frustrate these evil councils and their wicked "scams", motorists could simply park legally and drive within the speed limit.

Crazy idea, but it might work...

[Mark]

Why are people stating the obvious that fines are revenue for councils? Of course they are, a fine is money, money is revenue. Also a search of the t'interweb tells me that the money that comes in from parking fines (after costs) can only be spent on:

* Providing additional parking facilities

* Public transport schemes

* Highway improvements

* Road maintenance

* Schemes supporting the Mayor of London?s transport strategy

* Environmental improvements.

which seems fair to me.

And that Anita story is brilliant, especially the start where she says "Little did she know that the London Transport had their own plans for her that were far from friendly" as if they pick an innocent individual everyday who has a yoga class then forcibly make them miss it by using trauma, terror and Community Police Officers.

[kford]

BJL, they do, we do, but even the most careful driver will find themselves fined, not necessarily around here, where it's reletively lax, but definitely in Westminster or Camden.

Apologies to seanmlow :)

And mark, if their finances were in order, they wouldn't have to rely on people's genuine mistakes to make up their shortfall. Don't believe the hype, my man. If you can show me any example of highway improvements from your list, apart from the TfL-funded Walworth Road scheme, that Southwark have provided, then I'd like to hear of them.

[SeanMacGabhann]

only sheep here is .... well, never mind. What exactly constitutes a genuine mistake? I see wanton and flagrant disregarding every day - genuine mistakes, very few

anyway - here is one scheme TfL are investing some of the money in - you of course, won't approve

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/5730.aspx

Not to mention the fact that despite repeated asking of the question you haven't once come up with ANY scheme to manage parking/traffic

[????]

Er, some of us don't see a problem Sean(MaC!)

[annaj]

Firstly, I should say that I do understand that fines make money for the council and I don't mind, I think Mark kind of covered that.

Now, kford, I'm really struggling with your idea that most parking tickets are given to people who made "genuine mistakes". What are you basing that on? Just your own experience or do you have any more objective evidence?

But even if I suspend my disbelief and accept a significant proportion of people who get tickets have made a mistake, how do you propose that is overcome?

Should the fines be reduced to token amounts? The point of the fines are to act as a deterrent and they probably wouldn't be as effective if they were token amounts.

So, what's the alternative? Should the offender be allowed to explain themeselves? Explain that they're really a good person who just made a genuine mistake and the warden have to make some kind of judgement about who's good and genuine and who's not?

Sound pretty ludicrious doesn't it? Because it is, but it is what this thread and similar previous threads are all about.

What it comes down to is people being caught doing something illegal and feeling aggrieved when they're fined, because they consider themselves good people who just did a little thing wrong, not a bad person who deserves to be punished. The law only works if it is applied equally and fairly to everyone without judgement.

[Loz]

I have no problem with parking laws and fines. But, until there is a financial disincentive for councils to stop issuing dodgy/bogus tickets, the system will always have a question mark upon it.

[bignumber5]

kford Wrote:

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gangs of youths climb aboard the

> back of the 36 bendy-bus, with no intention of

> swiping their card?

I'd like to add a point of clarity here, because this is very much your perception.

If you're under 16, you have to carry a photocard for if challenged, but you don't have to touch in on a bendy. If you're under 14, you don't need anything. If you have a travelcard, you don't have to touch in on a bendy. If you have a bus pass, you don't have to touch in on a bendy.

You see these kids and you assume they are naughty young hoodies that are fare-dodging... and I'm sure a few (maybe most) are, but there was a thread a while back where half of the forum ranted about how dirty the 12 is then admitted to not paying for it pretty regularly. I don't touch in on bendies because I have a travelcard. But to the outside observer, I appear to be fare-dodging. (I conceed this is a genuine problem with bendies, as the "he's not paying, why should I?" mentality kicks in.) When the inspectors get on, a number of people try and give them a bit of flannel (my personal favourite is "I have an oyster card but it's at home") and y'know what, it doesn't work. But it's rarely the kids.

*Echos SeanMac about above-law mentality*

What I find particularly odd is the number of threads that pop up on this forum with a variable situation (parking, littering etc) where the subtext of the thread-starter seems to be "I got caught, and I don't like it. Shouldn't I be above the law when I think I've got what I consider to be a decent defence?". The thread-starter then always seems genuinely suprised when the response from the wooley lefty ED is "... err... well, no..."

To get the thread back on track to ED before it gets lounged, do we think the parking facilities for residents in ED are sufficient, and if not is that the reason that this kind of mess occurs? As many of us are in Victorian conversions, that means 3 properties with curb space probably only wide enough for 1 car, 2 at a push. Some residents permits perhaps?