Cinderella - anyone else concerned

[edhistory]

WorkimgMummy:

Which text/translation/edition of Cinderella are you using for the basis of this discussion?

John K

[cashewnut]

In the end I don't think the question about whether girls and boys will "revert to type" in the toys they used can be settled by quoting anecdotes, but I just wanted to point out that there were counterexamples. This is obviously going to be hugely affected by the other influences on a child.

As for the point about over-thinking, are people saying that:

- fairy tales/stories are just a fun part of a child's life and don't have any influence on their attitudes, or

- fairy tales/stories do affect children's attitudes in life but that's not worth worrying about, or

- they just don't care one way or another?

[WorkingMummy]

I'm not peering over my spectacles at a text, John K. I think the principal elements of the plot are well known.

Good that people are laughing. Get your laughs in where you can. Life's short.

I'm utterly sincere.

Nor is what I am suggesting (or at the outset of this thread, searching for) as a possible approach to reading this story with children, extreme.

WM

[edhistory]

WorkingMummy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm not peering over my spectacles at a text, John

> K. I think the principal elements of the plot are

> well known.

>

'Nuff said.

John K

[Jessie]

I love fairy tales, have always loved fairy tales. My son loves them too. Look for Pullman's recent retelling of Grimm's fairy tales for inspiration. I'm also a fairly strong, feminist woman who loved to wear pink when I was a child and had a pink bedroom until i was 17.

[Worker]

I've been impressed with the level tone of the debate on this thread given the potentially divisive subject - very interesting and educational. Hope it stays that way.

I'm with Buggie, Pickle et al on this one.

[redjam]

I'd be interested to know how many of the smart, feminist women writing on this thread were brought up reading the Cinderella story. I was certainly fed a diet of fairy tales, Enid Blyton and (later) Jackie magazine by my traditional, stay-at-home mum. Did I grow up loving literature in all its forms? I did. Did I grow up to become a meek, subservient little wifey who bows to my husband in every argument? I did not (ask my poor husband).

In fact, isn't all this feminist analysis of Cinderella missing the point? The reason children respond to the story is precisely BECAUSE Cinderella is powerless, and all her problems are magically solved by the fairy godmother. She might technically be an adult but she functions in the story like a child. Children are powerless - all of them, girls and boys - and if bad things happen to them they mostly don't have the wherewithal to do much about it. Who hasn't, as a child, wished that they had a fairy godmother who could come and solve all their problems? That's why the story resonates so much.

Certainly it's the fairy godmother scene that most entrances my younger daughter, who adores Cinderella. The prince is merely the tacked-on conventional 'happy ending' and she's not really interested in that. I suspect the reason it appeals more to girls than boys is more to do with the fact that a nice frock features heavily (and again, haven't we all wanted to be transformed into a breathtaking beauty with the swish of a wand?). But I think the basic transformation story appeals to every child - I guess the 'male' equivalent is weedy Clark Kent turning into Superman.

I think to look at the story through practical adult eyes ('why doesn't she leave and get another job?') is missing the very thing that makes it appeal to a child. I discussed it with my daughters (age 5 and 8) last night and they were utterly baffled at the idea that Cinderella could have left and told the ugly sisters where to stick it. She just doesn't have that function in the story.

[LondonMix]

No, I don't think that's what people (or at least me) are trying to say. Some people just don't see what others have read into it.

WM at one point suggests that Cinderella's reward is swapping dictators. While its an interesting interpretation of the two characters mutually falling love over the course of two balls and then getting married, it wouldn't be unkind to call that interpretation of the story unusual and perhaps over thinking the plot.

Also, ED History's question of which version is important. The version I read growing up doesn't contain the beauty = goodness message that WM has an issue with. In Perrault's version, the step sisters are not ugly (in many versions they are pretty actually) but are vain and selfish. At the end of Perraut's version he states what the moral of the story is and I quote-

Moral: Beauty in a woman is a rare treasure that will always be admired. Graciousness, however, is priceless and of even greater value. This is what Cinderella's godmother gave to her when she taught her to behave like a queen. Young women, in the winning of a heart, graciousness is more important than a beautiful hairdo. It is a true gift of the fairies. Without it nothing is possible; with it, one can do anything.

cashewnut Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In the end I don't think the question about

> whether girls and boys will "revert to type" in

> the toys they used can be settled by quoting

> anecdotes, but I just wanted to point out that

> there were counterexamples. This is obviously

> going to be hugely affected by the other

> influences on a child.

>

> As for the point about over-thinking, are people

> saying that:

> - fairy tales/stories are just a fun part of a

> child's life and don't have any influence on their

> attitudes, or

> - fairy tales/stories do affect children's

> attitudes in life but that's not worth worrying

> about, or

> - they just don't care one way or another?

[Otta]

I think the idea of "ugly sisters" is that they're meant to be ugly inside.

[LondonMix]

Exactly.

[midivydale]

This thread kept me awake last night thinking (overanalysing)....

I am in the camp (if there is one) who is very uncomfortable with the submissive, fairy princessy type stuff. If I had a daugther I would wholeheartedly keep an eye on these things. Like working mummy says (very wise woman) "These things matter". My own mum clearly favoured literature with more empowering women in it such as the ones I have mentioned above.

I do agree that reading a story with adults eyes are something very different to that of the eyes of the child.

I remember when my dad read cinders to me that it evoked feelings of empathy for her and that I understood that it was unfair that she had to do all the work and that her sisters were treated differently. I remember that this really upset me as a child and that I thought it was very unfair and unjust. I also remember discussing these feelings with my dad. Which, must in the end have been a good thing?

When I was growing up we always always always talked about books that were read and programmes that were watched, something which I fully intend to do with my son as well. I most def do not think that doing so discourages reading or takes away the pleasure of literature or story telling. In fact I think it does the opposite.

Again - doing this at work - which two weeks in from my return from mat leave I REALLY shouldnt...

x

[TE44]

I think its easy to get carried away on issues

such as gender, I remember a thread before about the difference

between boys and girls,and many posters being able

to associate certain behaviour with the sexes, others

didn't, Having respect for others and yourself is part of growing

up,which never ends.

WM My son found it hilarious that I'd connected a thread

about cinderella to the witchunts, theres nothing

like a good old laugh when looking at your grown up childs different

perception. Nothing personal.

[????]

Over academic agenda driven deconstruction.....doncha just love it

[cashewnut]

redjam - I do remember knowing the Cinderella story but I don't remember it being a favourite of mine or in the household.

I think your suggestion is that we read it as children and it hasn't influenced us as adults? That goes back to my earlier point that I do think people are influenced by this type of thing, and also my question to others - do you think your daughters'/sons' attitudes aren't affected by what they read in books, or do you think this doesn't matter? I think the implication from most of the comments is that you don't think they are affected?

[Saffron]

Certainly children are affected by what they read, just not always in the ways which we interpret as adults.

Plus, I don't think it's necessary or even useful to stereotype girls who do like pink, dressing as fairies etc, as conforming to what some adults possibly perceive as a media-driven frenzy of thinly-velied antifeminism. Being feminin --in whatever form be it pink or otherwise-- does not necessarily relate to being subservient, meek, weak-willed etc.

Geez it's no wonder young women are jumping off the feminist bandwagon like rats off a sinking ship.

  Quote

Young women may reject feminism as marginal and old-fashioned: European women who reject feminism often see it as obsolete or associated with extreme views, according to research from King?s College London.

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/newsevents/news/newsrecords/2013/03-March/Young-women-may-reject-feminism-as-marginal-and-old-fashioned.aspx

In perspective, if some of our deepest concerns for a our children are the stories we read them at night, then our lives are pretty good, no? When they ran for their lives, did Syrain mothers stop to consider what books they would take with them? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say "No".

  Quote

Around two-thirds of those caught up in the exodus are women and children, the majority of which are under the age of 11. Many arrive traumatised and without possessions.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/03/06/syria-refugees-women-and-children-forgotten-_n_2817654.html

I'm not saying the "cinderella issue" doesn't matter at all to me, I'm just saying I definitely won't be losing sleep over it personally.

Nevertheless, an interesting thread. xx

[edhistory]

On the more general point of "pink", "fairy" and "princess" books, my experience is that young girls rapidly lose interest when they reach around seven years old.

John K

[redjam]

Cashewnut - in answer to your question, I think at a young age children just see stories as make-believe - we have to be taught to analyse their 'message' as we get older, it's not something children do naturally. I would argue children are far more influenced by what they see around them in the real world than anything they find in literature - i.e. how their parents behave to each other, how they are treated in turn by their parents. Do you honestly think grown women make any life decisions based on their love of a favourite fairy tale as a child? There are far stronger forces - economic influences, peer pressure, family opinion, media commentary - that shape our adult lives. By the time we are old enough to analyse these stories and question the values at work in them, they have lost our hold over us. And before that, kids just enjoy them as wish-fulfilment fantasies and don't read deeper messages into them.

[Saffron]

redjam Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Cashewnut - in answer to your question, I think at

> a young age children just see stories as

> make-believe - we have to be taught to analyse

> their 'message' as we get older, it's not

> something children do naturally. I would argue

> children are far more influenced by what they see

> around them in the real world than anything they

> find in literature - i.e. how their parents behave

> to each other, how they are treated in turn by

> their parents. Do you honestly think grown women

> make any life decisions based on their love of a

> favourite fairy tale as a child?

Ooo, can I get a gong if I say "Kate"? ;-)

[cashewnut]

I would see stories as one among all these other influences. And I wouldn't say that you need to be able to analyse them for them to influence your way of thinking (perhaps the opposite?).

I would see the impact in terms of people's emotional response to things as much as individual decisions. For example yearning for a 'fairytale white wedding'. But again I'm not saying that's purely the result of reading too many fairy tales. Just that stories like these may be part of the mass of social/media influence that affects the way we think/act.

I hope that you are right though!

[LondonMix]

Saffron Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Certainly children are affected by what they read,

> just not always in the ways which we interpret as

> adults.

>

> Plus, I don't think it's necessary or even useful

> to stereotype girls who do like pink, dressing as

> fairies etc, as conforming to what some adults

> possibly perceive as a media-driven frenzy of

> thinly-velied antifeminism. Being feminin --in

> whatever form be it pink or otherwise-- does not

> necessarily relate to being subservient, meek,

> weak-willed etc.

Couldn't agree more...

[redjam]

Saffron, that made me laugh out loud!

And Cashewnut, yes I take your point that many girls do grow up retaining some of that childish desire for wish-fulfilment that in turn feeds into the idea that they deserve a 'fairytale ending', i.e. huge white wedding or whatever. But I would argue that all children start from that basic emotional level - whether they read Cinderella, Pippi Longstocking or never open a book in their lives - and that most of us mature and move on from that, to a greater or lesser degree. I don't think the fairytales themselves CAUSE those desires; I think they're inherent in children and fairytales appeal to them because they REFLECT their deepest wishes, i.e. that someone will wave a magic wand and 'make it all better'. We all want that, at heart, don't we? It's a basic human instinct, to yearn for a fairy godmother to look after us and make everything OK. And for little kids - who don't have the power to change much themselves - it's even more important.

Anyway, that's my tuppence worth - must do some more work! And sorry for the SHOUTY CAPS - haven't figured out how to do italics on this forum.

[katgod]

Hmmmm cannot help thinking that if we applied the 'Syrian mothers test' to most of the EDF it would pretty quickly close.

[WorkingMummy]

Redjam, I found your observation, about a page back, about the powerless position of children, and that being the source of the strength of their connection with Cinderella type figures, very interesting. That had not occurred to me at all. But I am still troubled because Cinderella is but one of many equally powerful stories which come back from Minute Library with my kids each week, in which the heroine (always female) embodies the virtues which I have described and wish to reject as paradigms for my own children (girls and boy).

There are of course different female characters, in more modern children's stories. Chez nous, this week, we have as a new entrant Charlene from "Charlene Loves to Make Noise". But those stories seem very different, to me at least. Charlene is not legendary. I?m pretty sure that my kids sense that Cinderella is being held out them as something other just another ordinary little girl from another ordinary street. I have not heard a good counter-argument to this: Cinderella self-presents as a morality tale.

And I have to say, I think that presentation works. I FULLY understand the chorus of "Naaahhhhhh! Give over!" I have in fact grown slightly embarrassed of my own position in the face of it. But I think (hope at least) that I am not bunkering down reactively when I say: I think that chorus is a tad naive.

We humans are creatures of language. Story telling is important to us. And myths play a role in our culture and in our minds which makes them more influential than other stories. This is not academic nor far-fetched to me. Many have said, "I was raised like this, and I am alright." Good for you. Ultimately, I?m very alright too. But as I think I have said already, my own experience as a young woman was that it was far from easy - even in my adult relationships - to get away from the principles of female virtue which were planted in my head (including via mythology) when I was a child. Sometimes I struggle with that stuff a little even now.

SOOOOO, I shall be reading ?Die Schonsten Marchen der Gebruder Grimm? to my children on demand, same as I always have. When it comes to a myth like Cinderella, which I see my little girls swallow right down, all I?ll be saying is, "You know what, I don't buy this, kids." Can't believe that this is - in truth - a controversial idea!

I've found the range of views in this thread very helpful in forming my own.

WM

PS: John K, if you really want to know we currently have no fewer than six versions of the Cinderella story in our house. (This is perhaps further evidence of the story's power.) We have the Disney DVD, two texts in German and written versions in English by: Amanda Askew; Gaby Goldsack; and a particularly revolting pink version contained in "Princess Stories", printed by priddypress. In all, the central elements are the same. They are pretty simple. I?m not sure they bear bespectacled textural analysis...

[buggie]

Who'd have thought when you wanted it all to kick off a few weeks back

that all you'd need to do is talk about fairy stories ;)

See you at Chris & Pui again?!

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think the idea of "ugly sisters" is that they're

> meant to be ugly inside.

[JulieP]

edhistory Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> On the more general point of "pink", "fairy" and

> "princess" books, my experience is that young

> girls rapidly lose interest when they reach around

> seven years old.

>

> John K

Agree with this. My daughter went through the princess / only wearing pink stage starting about age 3. This got worse after starting school. Now aged 6 and a half, she is much more rounded and has many interests in terms of what she plays and reads. She is equally happy playing with barbies as playing pirates and it has been ages since the "princess" dresses saw the light of day.