Dog attacked my child (St Aiden's Road) (Lounged)

[James]

I think it's entirely appropriate to try to figure out why incidents like this are happening. Rather than staying in a perpetual state of rose-tinted deludedness about the world.

You might feel a bit different if it was your child that was attacked.

[grabot]

To wade back into the dog debate. I have always been curious about the owners of bull terriers. Perhaps they can be lovely dogs, but there are many breeds that can be lovely: Shitzus, Bichons etc. The difference with these dogs is that when they freak out they are unlikely to cause any serious harm. Why would someone take the risk of buying a bull terrier when they could buy a relatively harmless dog? In a given set of circumstances I would have thought that any animal has the potential to attack. Tigers can be lovely, and moggies can be vicious, but I know which one I would rather have in the house with my young daughter.

I guess that I am missing the point somewhere. I would love to know what the point is.

[Siduhe]

I was thinking about this thread as I walked up Forest Hill Road last night. A young (20s) guy came out of the Chinese takeaway and walked up the street accompanied by a young, female Staff (cross, I think). For what it is worth, I would not have described him as looking like a stereotypical "chav".

The dog looked happy but excitable (as teenage dogs often are) - thrilled to be outside, running everywhere across the pavement (no lead) and looking adoringly at her master. So much so that she strayed out into the road a couple of times whilst darting about the place. When she did her business on the pavement, needless to say it didn't get picked up. They disappeared into one of the block of flats at the Wood Vale turnoff.

The thought that ran through my head was that a perfectly normal, happy dog was at serious risk of either being run over or turning on someone through lack of exercise and frustration, and lack of training by her owner. Dogs need exercise and discipline and this one didn't appear to be getting either. Personally, I don't think a Staff is particularly suitable dog to keep in a flat. It made me very sad for the dog, and even more so when thinking about what mandyw's daughter has gone through, and the fact that this could have been easily avoided.

[Keef]

I actually agree with a lot of what James said (not the bit about stopping the "chavs" from breeding, that's a bit scary). The way he put it was somewhat stereotypical and sounded a bit snobby, but actually there is truth in what he said like it or not.

I also agree that CWALD is not a chav, and have even been brave enough to say that to her face (then ran away).

More importantly, Mandy I hope your daughter recovers soon, particularly from the mental scars. My mum's neighbour's daughter was petrified of dogs (admittedly she hadn't been through what your daughter has), so my sister took her very lovely and gentle labrador down there, and the neighbour brought his daughter in. We held the dog back to stop him being over excited, and slowly but surely she managed to reach out a hand and stroke him. A bit later they were playing in the garden... I suspect now is not the time for this, but it might work in the future...

Anyway, best wishes to you.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

If you don't want people to think you're a chav then don't buy a chav's dog, because that is the way that they are viewed by almost everybody who doesn't keep one.

[James]

Um, yes, regretting the bit about stopping them breeding! Oops.

I suppose what I meant was that the problem is bad parenting - which, like bad dog ownership, seems to be passed down from one generation to the next. It's not the kids'/animals' fault themselves. If brought up well, Staffies can be remarkably loving and loyal dogs - like most breeds.

Like I said, it's nothing to do with class - there are equally repellant people from all social classes. They just have different bad habits (e.g. trousering unjustified share options as opposed to owning dangerous dogs)

Once again, my thoughts are with the little girl who was attacked.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

My mum's neighbour's daughter was petrified of dogs (admittedly she hadn't been through what your daughter has), so my sister took her very lovely and gentle labrador down there, and the neighbour brought his daughter in. We held the dog back to stop him being over excited, and slowly but surely she managed to reach out a hand and stroke him. A bit later they were playing in the garden... I suspect now is not the time for this, but it might work in the future...

Very important point lurking within this post. I cannot understand for the life of me why a person would own a dog, in an urban area, that they knew had had very bad press (rightly or wrongly) and made people very nervous, which by and large they do. This would be my main reason for not keeping pitbull (actually not true, I also think that they're hideously ugly), its an antisocial stance as far as I'm concerned. If you want a dog, and don't want people to think you're somebody whose individual sense of self-entitlement overrides any notion of social-responsibility, then get a labrador, or a Newfie, or a poodle etc.

[jumpinjackflash]

grabot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> To wade back into the dog debate. I have always

> been curious about the owners of bull terriers.

> Perhaps they can be lovely dogs, but there are

> many breeds that can be lovely: Shitzus, Bichons

> etc. The difference with these dogs is that when

> they freak out they are unlikely to cause any

> serious harm. Why would someone take the risk of

> buying a bull terrier when they could buy a

> relatively harmless dog? In a given set of

> circumstances I would have thought that any animal

> has the potential to attack. Tigers can be

> lovely, and moggies can be vicious, but I know

> which one I would rather have in the house with my

> young daughter.

>

> I guess that I am missing the point somewhere. I

> would love to know what the point is.

It's about preferences. There so many breeds out there, and as much as I love most dogs, I only really favour the big breeds, like Mastiffs, German Sheps, St Bernards etc. I couldn?t imagine owning something like a Pekingese or a Shit Zu (sorry Shih Tzu)! I do understand your point though on why you would want to get a dog that is seen as potentially an agressive breed. having said that, some of those toy dogs can be little sods at times too!

[Cassius]

A little angry dog cannot do nearly as much damage as a large angry dog and I think that is the problem. Some people, whatever you want to call them, have these dogs as a status symbol whilst others have them because they like them, but a large dog can be far stronger than you realise and can and do kill.......

[Mscrawthew]

I think you may be a little bit confused Dulwich Fairy. A pitball and a Staffordshire Bull Terrier are two totally different types of dog. Although they may both be terriers they are totally different to each other in size and stature. This is where the Staffords problem`s begin. They have been cross breed with so many other breeds that they are no longer recognised by the non terrier loving humans of this world or the untrained eye.

It`s only peoples narrow mindedness or ignorance of the facts who think like that >:D<

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Some people, whatever you want to call them, have these dogs as a status symbol whilst others have them because they like them, but a large dog can be far stronger than you realise and can and do kill.......

Like the hoodie who asked me to keep my kids away from his young Staffie because he didn't want it to get to like other people. Terrifying considering he was sitting in a beer garden very popular with young families.

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

I think you may be a little bit confused Dulwich Fairy. A pitball and a Staffordshire Bull Terrier are two totally different types of dog. Although they may both be terriers they are totally different to each other in size and stature. This is where the Staffords problem`s begin. They have been cross breed with so many other breeds that they are no longer recognised by the non terrier loving humans of this world or the untrained eye.

The point I was making was about how a dog is perceived by other people, how comfortable people feel having such a dog around them. I used a Pitbull as an example to make a more general point, how does that make me confused?

[Mscrawthew]

Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think you may be a little bit confused Dulwich

> Fairy. A pitball and a Staffordshire Bull Terrier

> are two totally different types of dog. Although

> they may both be terriers they are totally

> different to each other in size and stature. This

> is where the Staffords problem`s begin. They have

> been cross breed with so many other breeds that

> they are no longer recognised by the non terrier

> loving humans of this world or the untrained eye.

>

> The point I was making was about how a dog is

> perceived by other people, how comfortable people

> feel having such a dog around them. I used a

> Pitbull as an example to make a more general

> point, how does that make me confused?

Would you be able to tell the difference between a Stafford, a Pitball and a Stafford/pitball cross?

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

Would you be able to tell the difference between a Stafford, a Pitball

Yes, maybe not a cross but you still seem to be missing my point.

[Cassius]

I'm not a terrier loving human or indeed a terrier hating human - all I know is that some dogs are trained by their owners to be killing machines and some dogs are trained to be family loving pets - however ALL dogs can hurt, maim and kill in a given situation.

[TillieTrotter]

In my lifetime I have been bitten three times. Once by an alsatian as a kid, once by a rottweiller as a teen and also by a jack russel (the bugger bit me on the ass). I have spent alot of time around many staffies (going back a few decades they didnt have the fearsome rep they have now) and have never seen one turn. I do however know that they are a potentially dangerous dog because of their strength and tenacity. In the wrong hands they, and many other breeds, can be lethal. Its a terrible shame and it will carry on until laws are in place to deal with both dog and owner when these tragic events occur.

[Mscrawthew]

Not at all, My point being there are more Stafford crosses out there than pure bred Staffies. Your point being, You feel totally uncomfortable with irresponsible dog owners some of which may happen to own a form or terrier. I think we all agree that yet again it`s the owners total ignorance, not the dog. It`s just a pity that some people see no further than their fears.

[KidKruger]

It's a sad state of affairs that members of the public are allowed to not only own large / dangerous animals but take them into reach of other members of the public. How insane a state is that, especially in a large City ?!

I have witnessed a few dogs being pulled-off live humans they are eating, mainly in SE Asia, and from what I've seen a process for getting a dog off is to blind it (use a pen or a stick) then throttle it with rope. I did see someone extend the blinding bit to pushing the stick right into the dog's brain and guess what the situation was concluded immediately

Sounds harsh, looks harsher, not as harsh as someone bleeding to death from a torn artery though..

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

You feel totally uncomfortable with irresponsible dog owners some of which may happen to own a form or terrier. I think we all agree that yet again it`s the owners total ignorance, not the dog. It`s just a pity that some people see no further than their fears.

You did miss my point. It was that I wouldn't keep an animal in an urban area that I knew made many people nervous, which Staffies, Pitbulls, crosses (as well as many other breeds) do, and that people who choose to shouldn't moan when others question their social responsibility.

[Pickle]

What a horrible thing for your little girl to experience - I wish her a speedy recovery.

This has been an interesting post... I thought I'd add something I saw in Peckham Park on Sunday...

We were in the kids play area, and a family with 3 small kids came in with their parents. Two of the kids were visibly upset, and their Dad was exchanging "words" with the owner of two dogs - I'm not an expert on dog breeds, but to me they looked like some kind of Staffie. The dogs weren't on leads, and the Dad involved was basically telling the woman that she should put them on leads. Obviously something had happened between the kids & dogs to make the kids upset. The father was being very reasonable, not swearing etc., but getting a blast of abuse back from the dog owner.

The dog owner then set herself up on the grass right outside the play area. Continued to let the dogs run around unsupervised, and was even throwing their ball up against the fence of the play area to encourage the dogs to run up to where the kids from earlier were playing.

There was another family with young children sitting on the grass (they were there before the dogs arrived), and one of them politely asked if the dog owner would mind moving further away, as her kids were also a bit scared. Once again the dog owner let loose with a tirade of abuse, then started throwing the dogs ball over by this family. Admittedly the dogs were more interested in their ball than in the kids, but to a small child a big strong dog running towards them at full pelt is a pretty scary thing.

In my opinion, people like this should not be allowed to own dogs. She was rude, ignorant, and totally irresponsible. She could have taken the dogs to any other spot in the park and let them run to their heart's content, but to purposely antagonise families with small children was out of line.

Anyway, reading this post made me think of this incident, as when we were walking home I noticed the dog owner going into a house on St Aiden's Road. I just hope that one of her dogs wasn't the same one that attacked the little girl!

I noticed a sign near the kids playground yesterday saying that all dogs should be kept on a short lead - is this enforceable?

[Mscrawthew]

I think you choosing to single out certain breed owners shows a lot more about your fears and not necessarily other peoples. EVERY SINGLE DOG OWNER should show social responsibility. As for having dogs in urban area`s, its been happening for years. Considering how many people/dogs there are in our cities, all in all apart from the few incidents that are heard of (and everyone of them just as important and tragic as any others)

things seem to tick along quite nicely. Not everyone is an animal lover and we are all entitled to ours opinion, not everyone wants to have children but the people who choose to also need to show a social responsibility and thats ALL parents ;-)

Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You feel totally uncomfortable with irresponsible

> dog owners some of which may happen to own a form

> or terrier. I think we all agree that yet again

> it`s the owners total ignorance, not the dog. It`s

> just a pity that some people see no further than

> their fears.

>

> You did miss my point. It was that I wouldn't keep

> an animal in an urban area that I knew made many

> people nervous, which Staffies, Pitbulls, crosses

> (as well as many other breeds) do, and that people

> who choose to shouldn't moan when others question

> their social responsibility.

[Scruffy Mummy]

People may moan on about small children being annoying in public spaces but when did you hear of a toddler putting someone in hospital due to lack of social responsiblity of a parent? Dogs that are breed for fighting should be kept on a lead and muzzled in public spaces. I don't see how you can argue with that. A friend of mine who recently adopted a grayhound was advised to keep her muzzled for a few weeks even though she is pretty gentle untill it was clear she had settled in and wasn't a biter. My friend had no problem with that.

[jrthomas_uk]

Sorry to hear of this mandyw - I hope your daughter makes a full recovery in all senses.

Pickle - I don't think it would take a lot of detective work to find out if this is the same owner. If so, it sounds like the dog needs to be removed from this person asap.

Loads and loads of off-topic opinions being voiced on this thread. If the same effort was put towards tracking the owner down and helping the Police remove the dog and/or press charges against the owner, maybe we'd get a positive outcome?

By the way, if the owner of the rottweiler on Colwell Road is reading this, please don't let him jump up at me again - it scares the sh*t out of me.

[Cassius]

Are we going to get to the point where the rights of people to own whatever dog they own are going to be pitted against the rights of people (especially those with young children) to walk around without the possible threat of being attacked?

With H&S constantly being in the news - are we going to see a similar backlash against dog owners as we have seen against smokers and drinkers?

Sorry - bit off topic.

[SteveT]

I never go out to any park without a walking stick, I am not disabled I do not need it for support when walking but for protection against the dangerous dogs and the ignorant obnoxious dangerous owners.

I was crossing brockwell park some years ago, walking up the hill when over the horizon appeared a bull terrier type dog as soon as it saw me it changed its direction towards me, I changed direction, it changed direction. It was a few hundred yards away and just walked towards me and when it was close enough lunged at me, there was no owner anywhere and no one else around. That it didn't bark or growl, nor run at me, made it all feel very serious and frightening like I was being stalked, and then attacked to who knows what end.

I fortunately had a walking stick with me, and was only just able to keep it from chewing on me, but it was a fast and fearsome few minutes and has left me nervous of such animals and their owners eversince. When I was a lad I had my own dog which was not allowed out without a lead, it was soft and playful and yet in it's boisterous teenage years it jumped up at a small child and knocked it down, then ran off. I apologised to the big sister minding the child, and from then on I wouldn't let it off the lead when small one's were around.

The people who own dogs like the one who attacked me seem to 'get off' on having such a weapon at their disposal. I was convinced that, had a child or frail adult been caught in my position they would have become another statistic of death by misadventure. After only a few minutes of fighting this dog off I was trembling and shaken, and writing this now after 10 years, am feeling butterflies in my stomach. Why aren't all dogs muzzled and on leads when they leave their home and if they need to run as dogs do, then a long lead?

Sadly there is so much money being made from dog fighting that this type of dog, which had become really out of favour over the last few decades. They are not pets they are beasts which are fed on blood and when they go into a fight it is merely a live lunch for the animal. Pets are treated with respect and protected by the family, not put up against another killing machine.

When I was attacked, had I known the whereabouts of that owner, then I would not be writing on this forum, I would be doing my time for her majesty. I feel that an aggressive minority is inflicting fear and misery on the vast majority of normal law abiding citizens and they go about unchecked and unhindered and the punishments do not fit the crime.

That incident has changed my way of life, when ever I go out I feel vulnerable without a walking stick to protect me, just because some disgusting lout thoughtlessly releases a vicious dog on the community.

Had anyone bothered to ask my opinion whether this type of macho' half wit should be allowed to breed, then I would have joyfully speyed him myself.

Sorry David_Carnell to insult your sensitivities but I lean firmly in favour of James, I was taught to consider my fellow man and my behaviour towards him, not wrecklessly do as I please and ignore any responsibilities for my actions.

I feel sympathy only for this injured child and the trauma her family have been put through.