Incident opp.the Horniman Museum-Sydenham Rise.A205 closed

[SebsC]

Just to warn people that the South Circular, opposite the Horniman Museum, heading towards Forest Hill, has been closed. Something seems to have happened on Sydenham Rise - there were police cars, ambulances etc and the road has been closed. Currently, traffic is backed up all the way to the junction with Barry Road. Suggest people find alternative routes to avoid the area. Not sure if its closed in both directions.

[SebsC]

Just checked traffic news and it is closed in both directions between Sydenham hill and Dartmouth road due to a severe accident. Buses being diverted and police directing traffic. Will be chaos at school time.

[trident]

Just walked past the Horniman from the wood vale bus stop down to FH station and as mentioned all buses and cars along there have been diverted but it is still open to pedestrians. Looks like a lorry, coming from the FH direction has tried to turn left into the tiny road alongside the triangle park opposite the Horniman. Didn't appear to be any damage on the side of the lorry but I could see but a body was lying on the ground, covered by a red ambulance blanket, with no one working on them, so I assume it's fatal, how awful :(

[TillieTrotter]

A motorcyclist apparently involved. Very sad and chaotic traffic.

[miss brown]

yh I live there a motorcyclist got hit fell of his bike and hit by the lorry and died the traffic up Sydenham hill is nuts

[chica121]

we was there when the accident happened. it was not the lorries fault. he indicated to turn left on a side road which he is able to go on, not a tiny road and the motorcycle decided to undertake him on the left side, like all motorcycles think they can do which they cannot.

i feel sorry for the driver whom was so distressed, my partner calmed him down, it was clearly not his fault. the motorcycle was a woman who died on the scene.

all motorcycles need to be just as aware as all drivers have to be as well not to presume that in a motorcycle accident its the car drivers fault as always. im speaking from experience in a motorcycle accident and what we saw today.

respects go out to the motorcycists family and the driver of the lorry and his family too.

[natty01295]

Female motorcyclist killed in Forest Hill accident

5:07pm Thursday 23rd May 2013 in Lewisham By Mark Chandler

A WOMAN has died in Forest Hill after her motorcyle collided with a lorry.

Lewisham police said they were called to Sydenham Rise at the junction with London Road at 12.45pm to reports of the accident.

The motorcyclist, a female believed to be in her 40s, was pronounced dead at the scene by a paramedic.

Officers believe they know who the deceased is but next of kin have yet to be informed.

An investigation will be carried out by Road Death Investigation Unit.

There have been no arrests so far.

Anyone with information is asked to contact the Road Death Investigation Unit on 020 8285 1574 or Crimestoppers on 0800 555 111.

[fl0wer]

RIP the motorcyclist.

Feel so sorry for the lorry driver as well. Thinking of you, and of all your families.

[fatcats]

Is there a bus lane at this bit of road? If so was the motorcyclist in the bus lane and the lorry in the car lane? Just seems so odd that you would try and undertake a large vehicle that is clearly trying to turn left.

[BrandNewGuy]

The left-hand lane is a clearly marked for a hundred yards or so as a left-turning lane for all traffic. The right-hand lane is straight on. Terrible tragedy.

[kford]

The truck was probably using part of the straight ahead lane to make the left turn possible.

[Stalkey]

Chica121. If you or anyone else witnessed this incident could you please contact the police (Road Death Investigation Unit) on 02082851574 ASAP.

Thank you

[the-e-dealer]

I see a lot of near misses by Pizza Delivery Bikes with L plates. I don't think it should be possible to be employed doing deliverys without passing a test.

[fatcats]

BrandNewGuy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The left-hand lane is a clearly marked for a

> hundred yards or so as a left-turning lane for all

> traffic. The right-hand lane is straight on.

> Terrible tragedy.

For buses as well? As the bus lane continues immediately after the traffic lights, as far as I can see, and the road surface right up to the traffic lights appears to be red, which I think means it is still very much a bus lane, even if it is also a left-hand turn for car drivers (I could be completely wrong on all counts, I'm only a learner).

There are directional arrows leading up the traffic lights, but does this mean that all traffic - including buses and other vehicles that use the bus lane - has to turn left? And do buses tend to change lane if they carry straight on or do they stay over on the left hand side?

I suppose it would just be good to clarify, as it may not be as simple as all motorcyclists always trying to undertake people.

All I can see on Tfl website is this:

Motorcycles in bus lanes

"Motorcycles can use bus lanes as part of a trial - make sure you look out for them, when turning out of or into a side road".

[BrandNewGuy]

A quick check on Google Streetview shows it's not marked a bus lane at or just before that point - it's marked with large left-turn arrows. Buses can carry straight on at that point but for all other road users it's a left-turning lane.

[fatcats]

BrandNewGuy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> A quick check on Google Streetview shows it's not

> marked a bus lane at or just before that point -

> it's marked with large left-turn arrows. Buses can

> carry straight on at that point but for all other

> road users it's a left-turning lane.

The lane is red tarmac all the way up to the cycle box, which I think - and again I could be completely wrong - is used to mark a bus lane. There isn't a blue sign directly there but there is one a bit further back.

Where is the sign that says all other road users must turn left - apart from buses? Where is the sign that draws a distinction at this point between buses and the other vehicles that are allowed to use this particular bus lane, including cyclists, cabs and motorcyclists? I realise that there are directional arrows, but surely this is to let cars know they allowed move over to the left, not to tell the vehicles using the bus lane that it has suddenly become left-hand turn only and they must move over.

[KylaKevin]

SebsC Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Just checked traffic news and it is closed in both

> directions between Sydenham hill and Dartmouth

> road due to a severe accident. Buses being

> diverted and police directing traffic. Will be

> chaos at school time.

When it was closed?

[the-e-dealer]

Most of yesterday afternoon.

[JohnL]

direct.gov.uk has that lane marking (and a road sign)

and the following comment

"Where there is a break in a bus lane at a junction,

other traffic may use the left-hand lane for turning

left only

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasset/dg_191924.pdf

fatcats Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> BrandNewGuy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > A quick check on Google Streetview shows it's

> not

> > marked a bus lane at or just before that point

> -

> > it's marked with large left-turn arrows. Buses

> can

> > carry straight on at that point but for all

> other

> > road users it's a left-turning lane.

>

> The lane is red tarmac all the way up to the cycle

> box, which I think - and again I could be

> completely wrong - is used to mark a bus lane.

> There isn't a blue sign directly there but there

> is one a bit further back.

>

> Where is the sign that says all other road users

> must turn left - apart from buses? Where is the

> sign that draws a distinction at this point

> between buses and the other vehicles that are

> allowed to use this particular bus lane, including

> cyclists, cabs and motorcyclists? I realise that

> there are directional arrows, but surely this is

> to let cars know they allowed move over to the

> left, not to tell the vehicles using the bus lane

> that it has suddenly become left-hand turn only

> and they must move over.

[fatcats]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> direct.gov.uk has that lane marking (and a road

> sign)

> and the following comment

>

> "Where there is a break in a bus lane at a

> junction,

> other traffic may use the left-hand lane for

> turning

> left only

>

> http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_

> digitalassets/@dg/@en/@motor/documents/digitalasse

> t/dg_191924.pdf

>

>

> fatcats Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > BrandNewGuy Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > A quick check on Google Streetview shows it's

> > not

> > > marked a bus lane at or just before that

> point

> > -

> > > it's marked with large left-turn arrows.

> Buses

> > can

> > > carry straight on at that point but for all

> > other

> > > road users it's a left-turning lane.

> >

> > The lane is red tarmac all the way up to the

> cycle

> > box, which I think - and again I could be

> > completely wrong - is used to mark a bus lane.

> > There isn't a blue sign directly there but

> there

> > is one a bit further back.

> >

> > Where is the sign that says all other road

> users

> > must turn left - apart from buses? Where is the

> > sign that draws a distinction at this point

> > between buses and the other vehicles that are

> > allowed to use this particular bus lane,

> including

> > cyclists, cabs and motorcyclists? I realise

> that

> > there are directional arrows, but surely this

> is

> > to let cars know they allowed move over to the

> > left, not to tell the vehicles using the bus

> lane

> > that it has suddenly become left-hand turn only

> > and they must move over.

I would interpret that to mean that traffic that is not usually permitted to travel in that lane can enter it only to turn left. In this particular bus lane cyclists, motorcyclists and cabs would already be travelling in that lane.

I think this link is how I would have interpreted the situation at this particular junction:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/redroutes/963.aspx

[Dee Woffaz]

How typical of this forum for chica to instantly point the finger of blame. I am a car driver & motorcycle rider having had licences for both well over 20 years.

I am going to say one thing. IF CAR DRIVERS DID LIFE SAVER LOOKS(if you dont know what one is you should be ashamed) BEFORE TURNING LEFT THERE WOULD BE FAR FEWER MOTORCYCLE AND CYCLE ACCIDENTS ON THE ROAD. DO NOT JUST ASSUME IT IS CLEAR BECAUSE IT IS YOUR RIGHT OF WAY.

Regardless of who is at fault chica the result is one dead & one traumatised for life.

My feelings are with both families.

[chica121]

not pointing the finger of blame. what we saw and experienced from motorcycles, and yes i had been on motorcycles too just like you. so talking from experience and being a driving instructor.

the same accident happened to me because its always the car driver has to think motorcycle, but what about the motorcycle they need to think what they are doing as well. like i said not pointing the finger of blame, but seeing what happened yesterday and having to see the consequences of a motorcycle not thinking again.

common sense if you see a HGV you dont try and undertake it or overtake if its turning, car or BIKE

[joseba]

the-e-dealer Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I see a lot of near misses by Pizza Delivery Bikes

> with L plates. I don't think it should be possible

> to be employed doing deliverys without passing a

> test.

If you look closely, it isn't actually an L plate, rather it's part of the printing of the delivery box (or was it another delivery company where I saw that?) It seems to me that a lot of bike drivers (or their companies) seem to think that having an L plate gives some kind of advantage. For the me only effect is that I now ignore them completely as clearly 90% of bikes with L plates are driven by experienced drivers.

[henryb]

Either way it doesn't excuse a driver not checking their left mirror well enough to avoid hitting someone when turning left across a lane. Very sad. My heart goes out to the families involved.

[Lois Pallister]

I am also a driving instructor in the area. I was in Chingford for the day but heard about the incident on LBC.

Very sad indeed.

As for the road markings: It is a bus lane which is in operation between the hours of 7am to 7pm Mon to Sun.

This means that if you are not driving a bus, taxi, motorcycle or on a push bike you should not enter the lane during those times where the line separating the lanes is solid.

The arrow does indicate that it is a left only lane (for all those unable to drive in the bus lane during its operation). To make use of this you need to wait until the broken line begins and then signal to move into the lane to turn left - and of course look too as ANY vehicle could be in the lane driving along at speed.

Between 7pm and 7am you can use the lane all along the road if you are planning to turn left and in fact you should use it anyway and come out of it if you are going straight on as all drivers should keep to the left unless there is a reason not to.

I feel very much for all concerned and it is possible that errors might have been made by both the motorcyclist and the lorry driver which is often the case in many road accidents.

A fact that I very much love and teach all my learner drivers is this:

Over 90% of accidents can be avoided by the person whose fault it isn't.

I firmly believe that one of the biggest reasons a lot of the accidents happen is because as drivers we tend not to look where we are going!!! I know that sounds a bit mad but it is true. I didn't before I became an instructor and still today many instructors don't teach pupils to ALWAYS know what is in front of their car before they proceed.

You also need to know what is at the sides and behind you but most instructors do teach that.

I know that this wasn't a cause in this accident but I'd love to take the opportunity to explain this to all drivers using this forum.

A good few years ago when the junction with Crystal Palace Park Road and Westwood Hill had no traffic lights but just a give way line, I suffered a whiplash injury at that junction whilst giving a driving lesson.

My pupil stopped at the give way line. I noticed that a woman had stopped behind us and another car was stopped behind her with more approaching the junction.

The angle there is so severe I had to bend forward almost until my head was on my knees to take a look. There was a car coming up Westwood Hill but it was a long way down and there was time for us to have continued rather than to have stopped. I said "Lyn" and before I could say "don't you think that is a big enough gap?" BANG -

The woman behind drove straight into us pushing us out onto the main road.

This is because she stopped behind us, looked to her right, saw that there was room, assumed we had gone and drove off to the left to emerge from the junction whilst still looking to the right. So many of us do that. I used to and most drivers do it because they were never taught not to at the beginning.

So please will all drivers try to notice any times that they start to drive in one direction whilst looking in another and then try to remedy this by looking before going once they have established that there is a gap in the traffic for them to go. You can look back again as soon as you are moving but DO look FIRST.

I just wish I could teach all drivers on the road to do this as it would reduce accidents dramatically.

In this case, if the driver of the lorry was indicating left and was using the right lane so that he had room to get his vehicle round the tight corner then the motorcyclist would have been wise to have waited behind the truck until it had turned. It may have been easier for the motorcyclist to have taken this action than for the truck driver to be able to see the motorcyclist in his blind spot, but I wasn't there and I think it is not good to point the finger when the details are unknown. Once they are known though, discussing such things isn't bad because it may help prevent similar accidents in the future. I am sure everyone feels for both road users and their families and discussing how it may have happened does not detract from that in any way whatsoever.

Let us not criticise those who have made mistakes because at times we have all made mistakes but instead let us learn from our own and others mistakes to make a safer future.