MMR and Autism- whats your opinion...

[root]

TE44, you are going around in hysterics like a headless chicken.

There are multiple issues here:

1) Does MMR vaccine cause autism?

NO

2) Is herd immunity fact or fiction?

Fact

3) Are all vaccines safe and effective?

I don't know

4) Are there serious doubts around the effectiveness of Tamilflu?

Oh yes

5) Do issues around Tamilflu prove that the MMR jab causes autism?

No

6) Is Pharma dodgy?

Yes

7) Is Big Pharma the only player in health sciences?

No

8) Does there need to be a lot more tranparency and accountability?

Yes, see one of the first links on this thread which I posted:

9) Should we do our best to fix Pharma?

Yes

10) Should we deal with the unknown and fear of Pharma with a wholesale rejection of science based medicine by embracing alternative natural remedies? (such as reiki, homeopathy, chiropractor, Bach's flowers, feng shui and magic crystals)

No, you'd have to be a complete idiot to do so

[TE44]

No hysterics here, my decision to not vaccinate was before wakefield, as i've said. Taking into account the

fact you believe pharmys to be "dodgy" you trust them enough to make an informed decision to vaccinate.

I find it very strange you would see me running around as a headless chicken,because I chose not to vaccinate.

I do hold my hands up to going off on different tangents, I find it difficult to type(phone) in time with my thoughts.

What worries me most about many of these posts is the hysterics of the herd mentality, it encourages people to

believe there should be no choice, regardless of these "dodgy" pharmys.

What comes first the chicken the egg or the allergy.

[root]

TE44 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> No hysterics here, my decision to not vaccinate

> was before wakefield, as i've said. Taking into

> account the

> fact you believe pharmys to be "dodgy" you trust

> them enough to make an informed decision to

> vaccinate.

As I've been saying over and over again, yes, there is a need for tighter scrutiny on Pharma but that does not discredit medicine, all the players in healthcare, and the overwhelming body of evidence we have for tried and tested vaccine schedules like adopted here in the UK.

While I always welcome health scepticism I fail to see how that translates to blind acceptance of the rather obtuse links you have posted throughout this thread.

On a side note, do you feel the same about other treatments as you feel about vaccines? I wish you all the best never to ever need any medical assistance. Some of us are not so fortunate. I wouldn't know where I'd be today without some drugs, including ones with some scary side effects but at the time the benefits outweighed the risks and collateral damage.

> I find it very strange you would see me running

> around as a headless chicken,because I chose not

> to vaccinate.

> I do hold my hands up to going off on different

> tangents, I find it difficult to type(phone) in

> time with my thoughts.

O_o

>

> What worries me most about many of these posts is

> the hysterics of the herd mentality, it encourages

> people to

> believe there should be no choice, regardless of

> these "dodgy" pharmys.

The word 'choice' is an easy sell. Woo like 'informed decision', 'taking ownership of your health', blah blay, yada, yada. Your choice here affects others. Do you drive on the left or the right hand side of the road? Do you wee and poo in a bucket and throw it out of the window (as allegedly they used to do in Shakespearean times but not sure) or use a bathroom with proper sanitation?

Some things don't just benefit us but are there to protect society as a whole. Why should your misconceptions put the health of others at risk?

>

> What comes first the chicken the egg or the

> allergy.

OK this just blew me away ...

[Saffron]

Vaccines are a pharmaceutical product. Like all pharmaceutical products they carry a risk. Equally, infection with M/M/R pathogens carry risks.

So for children who were not vaccinated, their diminished risk of infection with M/M/R is due to the successful vaccination of the majority of other children.

As a parent we each have to weigh up those possible risks, and decide which hazard to accept. That's an individual choice in the UK, and the majority of parents do choose to vaccinate because the preponderance of the preclinical, clinical, and epidemiological evidence suggests that vaccination presents a lower hazard than non-vaccination.

For people who believe in the 'optimal health' scenario, where optimal health supposedly defends against infection, or severity of infection, take note that not only does optimal health not prevent infection, there are documented cases of optimal health making infections worse.

For example, the flu pandemic of 1918 was notable in being a form of the virus which activated the body's own immune cells against the body itself. This meant that very healthy people with strong immune systems were worse hit and more likely to have died. This virus killed young, healthy people.

Also the varicella virus can lead to encephalitis in healthy children, where the immune system again turns on itself in healthy people.

There is currently no credible documented link between MMR and autism, but there are known significant complications from infections with any of these pathogens themselves.

Regarding the previous posts on court cases purporting to show that a legal contextual link has been made between vaccines and autism, the linked websites presenting these cases are biased. You need to read the actual court documents themselves to understand the context in which the rulings were made. These court cases do not actually demonstrate the development of autism following vaccination with the MMR.

By vaccinating your child, you not only protect them from the major risk of infection with M/M/R pathogens, you choose to participate in a social system that protects children who cannot be vaccinated due to age or serious medical conditions. By not vaccinating your child, you protect them from the very small risk of vaccine-associated side-effects, but you also choose NOT to participate in a social system that helps others who are unable to be vaccinated.

For anyone who simply doesn't believe in herd immunity, or transmission of disease by unvaccinated children, there's probably very little that can be said or written to change their minds. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

xx

[TE44]

Heres another link on cognitive dissonance.

http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2008/10/19/fighting-cognitive-dissonance-the-lies-we-tell-ourselves/

I would think you would be more unlikely to reach a point where this issue is

a problem to you if you could accept things are not always about being right or wrong. And also looking externally

at your behaviour to other peoples different views. I have no

experience with cbt and realise cognitive dissonance is when there is

discrepancies between your beliefs and actions. I suppose we all mostly

must recognise this on different levels, in a, I know I shouldn't but I

will, sort of a way.I think through life you learn to question your own behaviour,

In regards to vaccines I can't see this being a problem unless unsure about you decision,

I think most people who have looked at information to help them decide may have been unsure, but I wouldn't

call that CD. When you understand the difficulties of your own in deciding, if any,It helps to accept others

decisions.I know I have said this before but I do believe face to face without a keyboard, this subject

discussed among my friends who have vaccinated has never been a problem.

[devsdev]

This is clearly a spoof video, but on message: http://www.upworthy.com/how-would-it-look-if-vaccines-were-advertised-just-like-prescription-drugs

[TE44]

Root I an sincerely sorry you have suffered ill health and hope it is in the past. I also have health problems but I really have no wish to discuss them on this forum, I am fully aware of recovery or alleviation of sufferings through

medicine, I wish you good health.

[Kes]

"The Pharmaceutical industry have certainly been guilty of cover ups, but MMR just isn't one of them"

- Ben Goldacre, founder of the All Trials campaign linked to above by TE44

http://www.badscience.net/2009/03/christ-i-need-a-haircut/

[esme]

I read quite a bit but research didn't seem to be conclusive and as there wasn't a separate measles vaccine available (and obviously measles can be nasty and cause deafness amongst other things) we opted for our son to have the MMR. Definitely a very personal choice. Best of luck deciding.

[StraferJack]

Anti vax mum of two wakes up

http://goo.gl/7O3NZJ

[sillywoman]

Beautifully posted Saffron.

I speak as one who has a slight inclination toward woo-ism.

:D

[Zaardvark]

Hi

It is hard to begin on exactly all that is bad with the antivaccine movment but this post summarises on one woman "Leaving the Anti-Vaccine Movement" http://www.voicesforvaccines.org/leaving-the-anti-vaccine-movement/

The attached image really sums it up: the immune system gets 3% of the immune system insults with full vaccinations versus what an unvaccinated child will get.

What was most shocking was the reaction of her friends:

"The fallout from changing my views was pretty extreme. Within two weeks of ?coming out? on Facebook about my new stance, I lost over 50 friends. People who had cheered me on and supported me through my home birth, who had told me countless times that I was an awesome mother and an inspiration, just dropped me like we?d never been friends at all. I was removed from groups and blocked by people I didn?t even know. I was accused of being brainwashed and told that my girls were going to get autism and have terrible reactions. It hurt."

Best

Z

[TE44]

http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/opinions_decisions_vaccine/Published

Link to US federal court cases vaccine damage, you'll notice a disclaimer

underneath cases saying it is not an official report with no guarantee of

it being error free or correct. Anyone know where this is reported without error.

[DaveR]

I only looked at one of the cases regarding 'vaccine damage' and the finding was:

"there is not a preponderance of the evidence showing that Karsen?s injuries were caused or significantly aggravated by his February 19, 2005 vaccinations. Although Karsen?s vaccinations may have caused a low grade fever or otherwise triggered his first seizure on February 20, 2005, neither that initial seizure nor his vaccinations caused or significantly aggravated his Dravet syndrome and resulting neurological complications. Rather, his SCN1A genetic mutation is the sole cause of his injuries."

i.e. no vaccine damage.

Edited to add - I looked at the other case that appeared to concern alleged causative links between vaccination and medical conditions - same outcome.

Being 'anti-vaccination' is possibly the ultimate idiotic indulgence of those who have only ever known the supreme benefits of living in the developed world in the 21st century. It's like being 'anti-nutrition' or 'anti-education'.