MMR and Autism- whats your opinion...

[root]

hellosailor Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> root Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

> > Or better still, if you don't want to vaccinate

> > your children then do not have children in the

> > first place as it is the lives of others and

> > society at large you are putting at risk when

> you

> > don't.

>

> You're nor getting it root. It's the parents

> choice. Who are you to say that people who do not

> vaccinate their children should not have children.

> You sound like the Daily Mail, in fact I've never

> read a post by you that didn't sound like The

> Daily Mail.

Oh I do get it. As a parent you have rights and responsibilities, and if there ere no underlying medical reasonns your kinds should be vaccinated, not just for their own sake but for the sake of those feebler in society who cannot adequately protect themselves from certain diseases and their best chances not to have to face a disease is herd immunity, that is when sufficient numbers of the population are vaccinated making it harder for the unprotected individual to meet the disease.

So yes, I stand by my statement, if you are selfish enough not to vaccinate your kids, then it would be better for the rest of us if you sinply don't have any.

Not even going to bother bringing up the daily mail comment.

[reeko]

Ask yourself would you vaccinate if there was an outbreak? If the answer is yes, then do it now and protect your kids and others.every unvaccinated child increases the risk of an outbreak, and during an outbreak every unvaccinated child is at risk.

[????]

There's medical opinion based on research and not just big Pharma

..or there are conspiracy theory websites

[TE44]

http://m.naturalnews.com/news/036298_Merck_scientists_False_Claims_Act.html

notice link i added above cannot be acceessed, privacy thing I dont know?

Heres another one. Scientist who worked for merk accusing company of falsefying

records on safety and efficciency.

[root]

TE44 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> http://m.naturalnews.com/news/036298_Merck_scienti

> sts_False_Claims_Act.html

>

> notice link i added above cannot be acceessed,

> privacy thing I dont know?

> Heres another one. Scientist who worked for merk

> accusing company of falsefying

> records on safety and efficciency.

Big Pharma is very shady and has a lot to answer for but the solution is to clean up Pharma not stick our heads in the sands of science denial and turn to quackery, of which naturalnews.com is greatest fountain.

If you can spare a few minutes to a voice of reason check Ben Goldacre's talks on the subject:

Back to your assertion. As far as I could read the two researchers accused Merk of falsifying data on the levels of efficacy data to gain an unfair advantage over competition but did not put into question the science behind the vaccines, the general efficacy or the safety.

What has really cracked me up however is that naturalnews.com link. I have attached a screenshot of what came up when I clicked. Safe for work but not one's sanity.

In addition to a biased version of the events about which the article revolved it included:

* No less than 3 adverts for colloidal silver

* An advert for the health ranger's own cupping therapy set (Yes, that's Mike Adams the idiot behind Natural News himself)

* An advert for ther B17 anti cancer rubbish (can't believe this is still going on)

* Usual detox bla bla

* More rubbish

* and last but not least, an advert for Oxy-Power!!!

Oxy-Power is not a bleach to clean your carpets, or remove stains from you clothes without losing all the colour. It claims to be a "powerful colon cleansing product that actively releases small amounts of cleansing oxygen in your large intestine".

[TE44]

Drugs companys have been fined time and time again over falsifying

safety, by witholding results from trials where problems have been found.cant put

anything up now but I do think people should be allowed to mak.e a choice

[root]

TE44 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Drugs companys have been fined time and time again

> over falsifying

> safety, by witholding results from trials where

> problems have been found.cant put

> anything up now but I do think people should be

> allowed to mak.e a choice

Yes, unfortunately in being naughty the Pharma industry has caused lots of hysteria amongst the scientific illiterati and the new age chichi who read the likes of naturalnews.

Yes, unfortunately on issues that should be trivial, such as the MMR people have a choice and some chose the do the wrong thing. If you ask me, chosing not to vaccinate your kids is criminal. Not towards your kids, but as I mentioned earlier towards those other kids and members of the public who for health reasons have to rely on the herd immunity to lesson their chances of encountering and being struck down by the disease.

Yes, not vaccinating kids is one of the ultimate forms of ignorant selfishness.

[Ontherun]

I feel furious that after all these years parents are still struggling with decisions about the MMR due to fear of a link with autism despite the total debunking of that evil money grabbing man who used his position to put his own wealth before the health of so many children.

Here's Darren Cunningham's eloquent record of the facts http://tallguywrites.livejournal.com/148012.html

I'm afraid I don't know how to embed this link but if you put it into your search engine it should be the first link.

My children are much bigger now but were babies when this debate was raging. It was another new mum who happened to be a scientist who helped me make my own decision to vaccinate & walked me through the process. However even now, after all the angst I still struggle with injections for the children. It's usually only the odd booster thankfully (and even 17yrs old still appreciate the 'well done' smartie afterwards :)).

[Yuuna]

I urge people to read this article on Mercola.com and consider what it means. http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2001/08/18/vaccine-myths.aspx

What I find most telling is the truth that so called disease 'outbreaks' or 'pandemics' such as measles have been found in largely, in some cases fully, vaccinated areas! Remember, diseases have 'cycles'. They can come, go, and then come back again. Disease rates fell previously, before the introduction of vaccinations yet they have since increased in vaccinated populations. Also watch the video on the third page. Would you dismiss her and countless other mothers whose children were severely effected or killed by vaccinations as nonsense or 'scaremongering' even? Are they 'crazies'? Really? So health organisations and government agencies telling you that measles seriously harms your child and could kill them isn't scaremongering yet in the same breath NOT inform you of the disease outbreaks being in areas of vaccinated people and those that went onto get measles were more than likely already vaccinated? Now that is both shocking and scary! Let's also not forget deceitful.

Root, what you wrote is most incorrect. Only one who has not thoroughly researched vaccinations, their true efficacy, history, politics and of course 'followed the money' yet blindly believe them to be totally safe and risk free because 'everyone does it' is truly ignorant. I pity them and those arrogant enough to write what you did.

In my view, autism is not the biggest concern; it is the likelihood of my children going onto contract the very illness they were supposedly 'immunised' against. People who talk of measles being back say it as if most people don't vaccinate their children; they do! Yet, it's still back... Please, don't believe the medical guarantees. The only guarantee I know of is that the vaccine manufacturers are very wealthy indeed. I am from Japan. In the 1970s they raised the vaccination age from 2 months old to 2 years old over fears of SIDS and there was a decrease...

We know that we don't have the full picture but it does seem very likely that vaccinations do not protect children, or even adults from disease; they may even be the cause of them going onto develop it. Children are meant to get ill from time to time, they recover and their immune system is better for it. Of course, some children are more predisposed to illness than others. In my view, those are the children most adversely effected by being formula fed rather than receiving their mother's milk. In those cases, their best defence is excellent nutrition and these days that is hard to find here I think.

Another point that is important to note is that this so called 'herd immunity' is a myth. It is a lie. If it existed we would never have seen disease outbreaks in 100% vaccinated populations. Vaccinations only give temporary benefits, if any, I have read. The community I am from has low vaccination rates and we have low childhood illness and infant mortality rates. I will also write that previously this was not the case when we were much poorer, lived in cramped, over crowded homes, and were less educated about hygiene (I am told). However, we still lived longer, healthier lives on average than the rest of Japan and we still do... My point is, once we had better standards of living our quality of life naturally improved. Is that not similar to the case in England before vaccinations? The incident rates were decreasing; naturally. Amazing, right?

If anyone is interested in reading articles related to vaccinations and health in general, I would recommend Dr. Tim O'Shea's website: http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/chapters/ his articles are very informative and well referenced and he is an actual doctor.

I think people should really start opening their eyes and start looking into things more deeply. Don't rely on the government and supposedly well meaning health organisations to make the 'right' decisions about you and your family's health. Remember; follow the money. Who paid for the research? Did the doctor explain what to look out for in case of an adverse reaction? Do you not think they should?

'Mankind have a great aversion to intellectual labour; but even supposing knowledge to be easily attainable, more people would be content to be ignorant than would take even a little trouble to acquire it.' Samuel Johnson

[hellosailor]

I've always wondered if vaccines are totally safe, why there is a whole government dept dedicated to paying out compensation for those seriously disabled by vaccinations each year. Perhaps you can shed some light on it Root?

https://www.gov.uk/vaccine-damage-payment

https://www.gov.uk/vaccine-damage-payment/eligibility

[????]

Smallpox

Polio

Eradicated because of improved conditions only?????

I could pull my hair out that the internet lets such rubbish spew out and get spread and supposedly intelligent people fall for this.

[etta166]

hellosailor Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I've always wondered if vaccines are totally safe,

> why there is a whole government dept dedicated to

> paying out compensation for those seriously

> disabled by vaccinations each year. Perhaps you

> can shed some light on it Root?

>

>

> https://www.gov.uk/vaccine-damage-payment

>

> https://www.gov.uk/vaccine-damage-payment/eligibil

> ity

Of course they are not completely safe. Nothing is. They are just much less risky than contracting the diseases that they protect against. It's a risk assessment question whether to vaccinate or not - you just have to weigh up the risks of vaccinating against the risk of not vaccinating. For most people the risk assessment is very clearly in favour of vaccinating.

and Quids, polio hasn't been irradicated everywhere yet.

[hpsaucey]

etta166 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> hellosailor Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I've always wondered if vaccines are totally

> safe,

> > why there is a whole government dept dedicated

> to

> > paying out compensation for those seriously

> > disabled by vaccinations each year. Perhaps you

> > can shed some light on it Root?

> >

> >

> > https://www.gov.uk/vaccine-damage-payment

> >

> >

> https://www.gov.uk/vaccine-damage-payment/eligibil

>

> > ity

>

> Of course they are not completely safe. Nothing

> is. They are just much less risky than

> contracting the diseases that they protect

> against. It's a risk assessment question whether

> to vaccinate or not - you just have to weigh up

> the risks of vaccinating against the risk of not

> vaccinating. For most people the risk assessment

> is very clearly in favour of vaccinating.

>

> and Quids, polio hasn't been irradicated

> everywhere yet.

Got to agree - for most, but not ALL, weighing up would be in favour of vaccinating. I think there are some cases where its not clear cut either way - that's were the poor parent's got a really hard decision to make.

H

[TE44]

Looking at other vaccines, the swine flu vaccine in 2009, thread on here about it, within 6 months of this vaccine being administered to children, there were people on the streets protesting about the side effects, narcolepsy, I think in Sweden, sorry can't check. In particular the adjuvant squalene was one ingredient recognised as a danger. Of course the people worried about this got the usual reaction from people who believe you shouldn't have children uunless you vaccinate. It took 3 different countries doing independent studies linking this vaccine to narcolepsy before glaxo smith and kline did there study regardless of the fact they were the manufactors. Most of the sites people who vaccinate ridicule, put up concerns about this vaccine especially squalene. I put a link up here when our goverment made a turn around on the link of this vaccine to narcolepsy. And were looking again at claims for vaccine damage which had previously been denied. Many people seem to think this is about wakefiel, I have said before, my choice was made before this and as yunna said this is not exclusively about autism.

[Yuuna]

I'm not sure anyone claimed 'improved conditions' eradicated anything. They did however contribute to lower incident rates. Diseases have cycles. The outbreak of measles at the moment is said not to be the same strain of decades ago. Diseases do mutate, continuously so much so medicines cannot keep up; hence flu vaccinations being largely ineffective in actually preventing flu. The same strain is administered in each vaccination yet flu has been observed to have over a thousand mutations within a single person.

In my view, my children are at greater risk of illness by being vaccinated. We can't protect them against everything however giving them the best start in life we can do, if we want to. Vaccinations won't improve my children's immune systems. Unfortunately most people believe the misinformation, lies and cover ups in media and health organisations. I'm in favour of optimum health; vaccinations won't contribute to that. People aren't able to make a fair 'risk assessment' due to not haveing all the available data. If they saw the true statistics, they would reconsider; vaccinations increase the chances of getting ill. I wouldn't risk my children's future health on a temporary 'fix' filled with toxins pumped into their bloodstreams their bodies wouldn't have a fair chance to reject. That's what I call risky. I know I have made the right decision and their good health is due, in part, to this (I know other factors count e.g. breastfeeding and fresh, healthy food, exercise etc.).

Hellosailor, thank you for those links. I find that interesting too. They have an equivalent in America too and since the 1980s have paid out over $2,000,000,000 in compensation to families adversely effected by vaccinations. That's not pocket change.

[Yuuna]

Yes, I should add my decision is not related to Wakefield either. I think people should stop citing him as if he is the only one to question the safety of vaccinations; he isn't. I personally know doctors who do not vaccinate their children and have noticed the children they see most often were vaccinated.

TE44, you might be interested to read this article about swine flu: http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/swine/swine-flu/ there was said to be mercury in the vaccination. Apparently swine flu was just a variant of 'regular' flu. My niece was actually vaccinated for this and went on to get flu for the first time in her life. She was ill for weeks and also got tonsillitis. Both her and my sister belive it was due to the vaccination. My sister was upset that her daughter was encouraged to have this by a nurse when told of her daughter's blood enzyme deficiency (she has a hereditary disorder that does not normally affect her and doctors have said her immune system is strong).

It's also telling that the Vaccine Damage Payment of up to ?120,000 could affect you receiving benefits such as working tax credit, child tax credit and income support. That's nice of the government, isn't it? Let's deter people from claiming compensation for being injured by their sanctioned drugs by threatening to take away their benefits. Well, they are drugs, so I suppose there was always a risk, wasn't there?

[TE44]

I would also urge people who believe polio is on its way to being eradicated to google, Acute flaccid parelysis and Vaccine-derived poliovirus (vdpv) sorry cant put up link.

Agree Yuuna, I believe natural immunity is under rated, drug companies who have paid billions in fines for deaths

by there hands offering to take responsibility for my childre, no thanks.

[root]

Yuuna Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I urge people to read this article on Mercola.com

> and consider what it means.

> http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive

> /2001/08/18/vaccine-myths.aspx

>

Knew it was only a question of time that if it's not Mike Adams of NaturalNews.com it had to be Mercola. Incidentally both web sites made it to Skeptoid's 2011 top 10 list of anti science websites which is exactly what this stupidity you're propogating is.

You're not being wise, you're not being open minded or educated. You are just being as retarded as those who believe the earth is 6000 years old, that evolution is only a theory and that the lunar landings were staged.

[root]

Yuuna Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yes, I should add my decision is not related to

> Wakefield either. I think people should stop

> citing him as if he is the only one to question

> the safety of vaccinations; he isn't. I personally

> know doctors who do not vaccinate their children

> and have noticed the children they see most often

> were vaccinated.

>

> TE44, you might be interested to read this article

> about swine flu:

> http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/swine/swine-flu/

> there was said to be mercury in the vaccination.

Not sure if said vaccine contained thiomersal which was routinely used as an (if I recall correctly) antifungal. In the doses used it serves its purpose as an antifungal for the preparation but won't cause any harm to a human being. But as science never stops and is always improving, and also in parto to the bad press, thiomersal has been replaced in most infant vaccines.

> Apparently swine flu was just a variant of

> 'regular' flu. My niece was actually vaccinated

> for this and went on to get flu for the first time

> in her life. She was ill for weeks and also got

> tonsillitis. Both her and my sister belive it was

> due to the vaccination. My sister was upset that

A few fallacies here. You are looking at a single case, hardly a sample size to draw any conclusion and you are also making a very big assumption that if something happened 'after' something then it must be 'because'.

> her daughter was encouraged to have this by a

> nurse when told of her daughter's blood enzyme

> deficiency (she has a hereditary disorder that

> does not normally affect her and doctors have said

> her immune system is strong).

>

> It's also telling that the Vaccine Damage Payment

> of up to ?120,000 could affect you receiving

> benefits such as working tax credit, child tax

> credit and income support. That's nice of the

> government, isn't it? Let's deter people from

> claiming compensation for being injured by their

> sanctioned drugs by threatening to take away their

> benefits. Well, they are drugs, so I suppose there

> was always a risk, wasn't there?

And there go the conspiracy theories ...

[hpsaucey]

Lots of emotive language here as this topic always generates. Yes lots of studies have debunked concerns. But then again, people used to use asbestos because it was thought to be safe and used to put their children under UV lamps for its 'health-giving benefits'.

Times change, science changes and what we know and understand changes - although people often have short memories - so I don't personally think its as black and white as many suggest and am sorry the issue sometimes brings out dismissive language.

HP

[david_carnell]

TE44 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

...I believe natural immunity is under rated...

Are you kidding me? This is unbelievable.

Do you have any idea how many people in sub-Saharan Africa die every year of preventable illness that could be vaccinated against? Do you?

The measles death toll in Africa is so high ? a child dies from every minute ? that many mothers don't give children real names until they have survived the disease. Try telling them about natural immunity. I'm sure it'll be a great comfort. Tell them about your thoughts on MMR and autism while the virus weakens their child's immune system and renders them susceptible to fatal complications from diarrhoea, pneumonia, and encephalitis. Those "lucky" enough to survive measles can have permanent disabilities, including brain damage, blindness and deafness.

And it doesn't stop with measles. Want to see some actual statistics rather than the pseudo-medical wibble you keep posting? (All figs are from Unicef)

Tetanus - 30,000 mothers dies and 200,000 newborns in 2001.

Whooping cough - 300,000 a year.

Both preventable with immunisation. Want to see what happens when science wins and we ignore people like you?

In 2012, global efforts to immunize children with vaccines against life-threatening diseases reached 111 million children and averted an estimated 2 to 3 million deaths per year.

Polio. Man's success story. Science wins. In 1988 it was killing 350,000 a year. It's now less than 2,000. Why? Because of a worldwide programme of immunisation. Not because of "natural immunity". Whatever that is.

How do you even manage to put your pants on the right way round in the morning?

[StraferJack]

seems odd that someone who is saying children should be vaccinated is accused of being Daily Mail

It was the Mail that did so much to spread that anti Vaccine message!

[root]

hpsaucey Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lots of emotive language here as this topic always

> generates. Yes lots of studies have debunked

> concerns. But then again, people used to use

> asbestos because it was thought to be safe and

> used to put their children under UV lamps for its

> 'health-giving benefits'.

>

> Times change, science changes and what we know and

> understand changes - although people often have

> short memories - so I don't personally think its

> as black and white as many suggest and am sorry

> the issue sometimes brings out dismissive

> language.

>

> HP

And after the woo, the hysteria, and the conspiracies come the deepities.

Science doesn't change. Our understanding of science improves, and whereas in the Victorian age every man and his dog could come up with a concoction they call an elixir nowadays we have research laboratories, overseeing health services, and independent teams who shred other people's work so that (while it's not perfect) what makes sense gets adopted, improved on, and so forth. It is not perfect. There are financial iterests, lobbying, research bias, but it's our job to make it better not turn the clocks back to 1685.

Incidentally the MMR vaccine has been around since the late 60s / early 70s, so we have quite a lot of data about it.

And yes, harsh words are in order. Not just out of frustration in the face of wilful stupidity, but out of the wreckless endangerment of putting other people's health, including the lives of other people's children at risk. That is the simple bottom line. I repeat, in case you missed it. The unvaccinated population are not just increasing their risk of disease, but above all, they are increasing the risk of exposure to those whose immunity is compromised.

[Saffron]

Yawn.

[BeccaL]

Also astounded that people are debating this - it's so selfish from a population/community health perspective not to vaccinate your children, in my opinion. However, just wanted to point out that "Dr" Tim O?Shea (mentioned above) is NOT an actual doctor, he's a doctor of chiropractic in the US, which means he has no medical qualifications at all. You should take that into account when reading his website...