Racism and homophobia - where we are in 2008

[James]

Interesting to read Diane Abbott's view in this month's Attitude magazine. I have always liked her & what she said confirmed this.

Basically, she said that there's still masses to do to confront homophobia in society, in schools especially; that we're some way behind compared with racism. She singled out the use of the word "gay" as a slur - the fact that this has been deemed by the BBC and others as acceptable (if it was a racist term of abuse it would not be tolerated).

Coming from a black woman MP I found this interesting, especially givan the debate about racism and homophobia which took place on this forum some time ago.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Given that the thread was used as recently July, could we not have resurrected it rather than start a new one? I'm not being pedantic - it's just when one is trying to reference older posts about a topic it's helpful to find them in the same thread rather than scrabble about

Anyway - on topic - I've never been her biggest fan - I think she is a bit of a political hack. And an opportunistic one at that. But I'm not sure I have much to add to what was said at the Tooting Town Hall meeting, erm... I mean original thread

Is there a link to the article online or are you paraphrasing to back up your original statement? ;-)

[James]

I am paraphrasing a bit (I can't remember it word-for-word!) but that is pretty close to what she said. I thought it was brave and principled of her to say such a thing - not in the least bit opportunistic.

She was actually condemning the ruling whereby a marriage registrar was recently allowed to opt out of performing civil partnerships for "reasons of conscience." Her point was that basically this woman is employed by the state - not the church - and strangely seemed to have no objection to performing non-religious weddings (also contravening Bible teachings). Yet for some reasons she only chooses to object to the same-sex ones... She got all this across fantastically well - much better than I have here - and I was really impressed with her principled stance.

It would probably have been more opportunistic of her to agree with the ruling and claim some support from the religious fanatics. I found it quite refreshing compared to the mindless trotting out of the party line you get from robots like Hazel Blears.

[SeanMacGabhann]

That's an excellent example you raise there James - I thought that case was outrageous.

In previous debates I think I have mentioned that you can read more into a situation than there is but that case left me speechless

[James]

It's incredible, sin't it? I also fear for gay youngsters attending some of the government's beloved faith schools.

It got me thinking how there's been virually zero media coverage of the recent homophobic murder of a teenager in Liverpool, while stabbings in London hog the front pages.

The likes of Chris Moyles continue to use the word "gay" as an insult on radio while films like Guy Ritchie's latest pitiful effort Rocknrolla are laced with casual homophobia.

Perhaps I'm being paranoid but it seems as if homophobia isn't being confronted as much as it should.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

James, I'm confused. You have just used the word 'gay' in a sentence. Either it is an acceptable word or it isn't - please enlighten me.

[James]

It's the use of the word "gay" to mean "sh*t" basically. Surely you've heard this?

And no, I don't think it is acceptable, any more than it would be to use a word pertaining to someone's race to describe something rubbish!

[SeanMacGabhann]

eh PGC?

Using a word in a sentence isn't the problem. Using a word in a derogatory fashion is. And it wouldn't even be that bad to use it in a derogatory fashion (ie gentle teasing) if people weren't being killed by others just for being gay

You probably know all this and are spoiling for a fight.... :X

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

No SMcG - if I were spoiling for a fight, I'd be direct. It was a genuine question - it's not a word I tend to use in any context (except in the Enid Blyton sense), nor mix with those who would use it derogatively.

[James]

I wish more straight people realized this Sean (although I do know many who do).

[SeanMacGabhann]

Really PGC? I always had you down as a Chris Moyles fan - Radio 1 pumping out every morning ;-)

In any case I see your confusion now - even if I am startled at how sheltered you are on the subject!

I'm not gay but, as mentioned before I have often been attacked when I was at school and called all the usual derogatory names for gay people by the attackers - so I know exactly where James is coming from.

[Jimbob]

James Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's the use of the word "gay" to mean "sh*t"

> basically. Surely you've heard this?

>

> And no, I don't think it is acceptable, any more

> than it would be to use a word pertaining to

> someone's race to describe something rubbish!

correct me if i,m wrong, but are you saying that instead of more traditional terms such as shit,crap, the word gay is being used instead.

[James]

Yes, it is. It's mainly among teenagers and a minority of people old enough to know better (like Chris Moyles) trying to sound cool.

I think it's really damaging as any kid who's unsure of his sexuality - not to mention bullies with impressionable minds - will get the idea that being gay is something negative and shameful.

[SeanMacGabhann]

we are talking adjectives here, rather than verbs mind you

[cdonline]

This has probably been talked about quite alot, but yeh, things haved moved on. Above all, because a legal framework overturning homophobic laws has largely been out in place by this government.

The use of gay as a derogatory put down and how easily it was taken up by so many, without questioning that it could be offensive to others, shows there's still much to change in some people's attitudes.

One of the biggest problems that has to yet be addressed, is that most young gay people have to put off living their lives openly as teenagers and usually wait to come out as adults. Whether it's fear of being different, parents, schools not properly addressing the issues, bullying or the fear of violence.

I do think the broadcast media do not take the issue as serious as they should. It's wrong that homophobia is allowed to be expressed in a way that racism is not, because people are allowed to have an opinion on sexuality.

[David Mc]

Stuff like this doesn't help either: http://www.christianvoice.org.uk/police.html

[DaveR]

Why compare homophobia and racism, like it's a contest? Is there some kind of universal tolerance-o-meter where you fail if you're not as vocally anti-homophobic as you are anti-racist?

To use the word 'gay' to mean rubbish was quite common when I was a kid, then fell out of fashion, and seems to have been resurrected by a minority of people; more to do with a pathetic attempt to be retro-cool, I suspect, than hard-core homophobia. It's like using the word 'spastic' in the same way (see other thread). Offensive to some, tiresome and childish to most people, but what are you going to do - make it a crime?

[Jimbob]

mountains and molehills are springing to mind.

[bignumber5]

DaveR Wrote:

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> Why compare homophobia and racism, like it's a

> contest?

A contest that we've debated the existence of before...

There was some feeling that casual homophobia is tolerated more than casual racism, with the expression "that is so gay" as a derogatory statement being tolerated in a way that a racial equivalent just wouldn't be. It's not that one type of predjudice is more offensive than the other, but how widely tolerated it is.

[MelbourneGr]

Jimbob Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> mountains and molehills are springing to mind.

Racism and homophobia need to be confronted and not dismissed as something being blown out of proportion as so often happens (See quote for example).

In all my ignorance as a schoolboy - following the cool crowd (or at least trying to), I only realised how hurtful and nasty it could be to use the word 'gay' to describe someone as inferior when it struck a direct relationship with the racism I had been experiencing.

[DaveR]

"There was some feeling that casual homophobia is tolerated more than casual racism, with the expression "that is so gay" as a derogatory statement being tolerated in a way that a racial equivalent just wouldn't be. It's not that one type of predjudice is more offensive than the other, but how widely tolerated it is."

But that exercise does involves an "offensiveness comparison", doesn't it? If homophobia is as 'bad' as racism then it should be equally deplored. But is prejudice against the disabled also as bad? How about prejudice against muslims (who are themselves not too keen on the idea of gay relationships I believe) ?

This thread (and the fact that it follows from a similar recent discussion on this forum) is all about special pleading - "people don't take my particular form of victimhood seriously enough" - which in the case of homophobia is, in my view, b%llocks.

[James]

Dave R, your attitude kind of proves the point. It's sad really.

My initial point was that we are a bit further along in combatting racism than homophobia, an opinion I was pleased to find endorsed by a black female MP. How saying this is making it a competition I don't understand, I think you have missed the point completely! Subtle, low-level homophobia is still ruining people's lives and it's not right.

Of course prejudice against disabled people and muslims is equally wrong! It's just that you don't hear the word "muslim" used to describe something "sh*t" the way the word "gay" is. And judging by the decision to allow the marriage registrar to discriminate against gays, we are not giving gay people the same protection as other minorities.

Also, what has the fact that some Muslims don't approve of gays got to do with it? Some white people think blacks are inferior but that doesn't mean we should allow such prejudice to go unquestioned.

Your last remark is particularly sad, especially when I think of that teenage boy murdered in Liverpool for being gay. Shame on you.

[DaveR]

James, if you want to discuss homophobia, go ahead. But the title of this thread, that you started, is "racism and homophobia" - why invite the comparison?

You think that discrimination against muslims is equally wrong - but do they? If muslims complained to you that gay people get to march through london shouting out their beliefs, but when they do it they get arrested, what would you say? Particualrly if what they wanted to shout was "homosexualtity is abhorrent to God!"

"Subtle, low-level homophobia is still ruining people's lives and it's not right." If you have some evidence for the first part it might be more interesting. And if it's true, who's disagreeing?

"Your last remark is particularly sad, especially when I think of that teenage boy murdered in Liverpool for being gay. Shame on you"

And are you suggesting that this murder is being less effectively investigated than a race-related crime would be? And do you have any evidence? That's the tenor of the thread, but I'm yet to be convinced.

But apparently I'm part of the problem. Is demanding a bit of rigour in your arguments homophobic? I hope not.

[Jah Lush]

I'm definitely with James on this. Any hatred towards a minority whether it be racist or homophobic is equally abhorrent. I know I'm stating the bloody obvious here but there you go. Anyway, I'm also reminded on this thread a song by Chumbawamba.

HOMOPHOBIA

Up behind the bus stop in the toilets of the street

There are traces of a killing on the floor beneath your feet

Mixed in with the piss and beer are bloodstains on the floor

From the boy who got his head kicked in a night or two before

(Chorus)

Homophobia--the worst disease

You can't love who you want to love in times like these

Homophobia--the worst disease

You can't love who you want to love in times like these

In the pubs, clubs, and burger bars, breeding pens for pigs

Alcohol, testosterone, and ignorance and fists

Packs of hunting animals roam across the town

They find an easy victim and they punch him to the ground

(Repeat chorus)

The siren of the ambulance, the deadpan of the cops

Chalk to mark the outline where the boy first dropped

Beware the holy trinity: church and state and law

For every death the virus gets more deadly than before

[James]

I'm wondering whether to reply as you seem like a wind-up merchant! But I will give you the benefit of the doubt...

>>You think that discrimination against muslims is equally wrong - but do they? If muslims complained to you that gay people get to march through london shouting out their beliefs, but when they do it they get arrested, what would you say? Particualrly if what they wanted to shout was "homosexualtity is abhorrent to God!"

What exactly are these "gay beliefs" you're talking about? The right to be gay and gay equality is enshrined in British law by the legal age of consent. Are you living in the 1950s? The rest of us have moved on. If you are a homophobe I suggest you emigrate somewhere more intolerant as things are not about to go backwards!

Gay people exist, Dave, I'm sorry if that upsets you (obviously it does) but we're not going away so you will have to learn to deal with us. And a gay pride march is obviosuly not the same as a march by religious fanatics preaching hate and intolerance. I can't believe that you could equate the two.

As for evidence that low-level homophobia is ruining people's lives, this month's Attitude magazine is full of heart-breaking stories about kids bullied at school for being gay. The very lack of coverage on the Liverpool gay murder compared to London gang-related stabbings shows that it's not a priority for the media.

But to be honest I'm sure all of this will mean nothing to you as you are clearly homophobic. I wonder where your fear and ignorance comes from? I take comfort in the fact that people like you are part of a dwindling minority these days.

As the saying goes, gay people exist. You really need to get over it Dave.