Dulwich Park middle class?

[PokerTime]

The problem with Louisa's comments about class and the local area (and they are a broken record) is they show a disctinct lack of knowledge of the history of the area. Ironically, the areas she bemoans for recent gentrification were never developed for the working classes in the first place. Most of them evolved towards the end of the 1800s, and were built to house the expanding middle-classes. into then suburbs - areas that grew with new rail infrastructure.

As for working class charm, I can think of many things that are not charming about working class culture. To blanket describe the middle-classes as dull whilst describing the working classes as charming is just ignorant.

And true to form, Louisa probably won't acknowledge any of that.

Maybe working class people should reflect that life existed before they came here.

[Louisa]

And PokerTime before those houses were constructed for the lower-middle classes the area was a predominantly rural poor locality with farm labourers and later clay-brick workers. So yes, areas do go into and out of class classifications, but ED was not a natural transformation, it was a economically driven shift back into poorer inner- London because homes were more expensive elsewhere and that shift has continued and now means literally no-one can afford to live anywhere in London pretty much.

You take my comments out of context yet again PT, I didn't blanket describe the middle-classes as dull. The genuine middle classes who live in Dulwich Village in fact are the genuine ones who always were able to afford the village and stayed there! It's the aspirational Home Counties blow-in graduate types who are to blame. Painfully snobby, and homogenising culture and people as they spread across inner- London.

Working class culture is far from perfect, but they are not in a position to drive property prices and transformation in areas based on wealth, unlike the blow-ins I refer to.

Louisa.

[PokerTime]

Everywhere was farmland before we built cities Louisa, so what? Economies evolve, technology evolves, and labour evolves with it too. You seem to think ED and other gentrified areas began in the 50s or something. The terraced houses that you so hate being filled with middle-classes, were built for middle classes. It's just a case of the wheel coming back to where it started.

And yes, I apologise for miunderstanding your prejudice. So it's just migrant middle class people you abhor then?

'It's the aspirational northern blow-in job seeking types who are to blame. Painfully inversely snobby, and homogenising culture and people as they spread across inner- London.'

Working class people migrate to London from all over the country too. Do you have an issue with them? Has it never occurred to you that that kind of migration also puts pressures on services, property and prices? Worse still, many of those migrants working classes come to University here, get good jobs and buy in places like ED too!

You can not land the entire problem of house price inflation and the feet of migrant middle-class people. There's actually a very good thread on house prices elsewhere and the wide range of reasons for inflation over the past 30 years. House prices have risen everywhere, including in working class areas. It's a complicated thing.

[Zebedee Tring]

For the umpteenth time I am forced to cite my version of Godwin's Law, which I call the EDF Class Law, namely "As an online discussion on EDF grows longer, the probability of an argument about the middle classes and working classes approaches 1".

BTW a few years ago Rod Liddle, one of this country's biggest wind up merchants, was living in Beauval Road for about a year.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Dulwuch Park's middle is class. I hate the edges though.

[PokerTime]

This one was there by post 14! Is that a record by chance?

[Louisa]

To be fair to me, "middle class" was cited in the thread name so could I possibly not respond?

Louisa.

[charlesfare]

I like all of Louisa's posts and the way they got people's backs up. Brilliant stuff.

[BrandNewGuy]

Louisa Wrote:

> People generally wind me up by suggesting things

> which are obviously false.

Yes indeed - like claiming that Dulwich Village has "a large number of privately owned non-chain businesses including restaurants", as if that were a contrast with East Dulwich. You then included a (chain) pub and cafes in order to back up your claim. If you allow cafes and other places that 'serve food' to count as restaurants, then East Dulwich has a higher proportion of independent v chain eateries than Dulwich Village does.

[daveybigpotatoes]

Who sold to the 'blow in's? No one forced anyone to sell. I do wish all the miserabellas would blow off and buy a commune somewhere.

[MrBen]

I think the 90's throwback faux-French Cafe Rouge is much maligned. Sometimes you don't want the latest Iranian diffusion eatery in a reconstructed Peckham back alley.

Sometimes you want a 5 minute walk, half a roasted chicken and chips and glass of Chablis. For ?15. It's so uncool it's almost hip again.

[MissKing]

It is quite rude to suggest anyone moving into the area is patronising 'locals' or a snob!

[Louisa]

MrBen you always speak so much sense. I'm all for a croque Monsieur and chilled glass of Pinot Grigio. And to eat it in such a pleasant environment as the village makes it all the more enjoyable especially on a sunny day. But oh well, I guess if you've lived in leafy home county safety all your life and you make the big move to the 'culturally redundant' about to be gentrified inner london suburbs, a pop-up Armenian khorovat pit fired restaurant in the back streets of Peckham is kind of edgy. Don't forget, these people find the village dull cos it's the sort of place they've grown up in.

Louisa.

[pinecone]

I am definitely going there this weekend. I love me some eggs benedict and a bucks fizz on a saturday morning to take off the edge of the week.

[PokerTime]

You are making a lot of assumptions there Louisa. You have no idea of knowing where anyone who buys has come from, or where they've grown up. But then again, prejudice often is based on assumption.

[BrandNewGuy]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Don't forget, these

> people find the village dull cos it's the sort of

> place they've grown up in.

>

> Louisa.

I was born in a city (Birmingham) and have lived in cities ever since and never in a 'rich' area. Dulwich Village is packed with dull rich people. And I don't care for hipster Peckham either.

[PokerTime]

There are dull people to be found in every walk of live. It's not the preserve of any class. That's what really frustrates me about this discussion. It's the same old diatribe that middle-class = dull and working class = charm. It's nonsense. There is dullness and charm in everything if you genuinely look for it. No-one in their right mind wants to see traffic cones in the middle of lakes that house wildlife.

[miga]

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[wavyline girl]

I can certainly see what Mr Liddle is saying?

Dulwich Village however has always been "Posh" but East Dulwich/Peckham nah!

Anyone who has lived here more than 10 years will I'm sure will agree that the area has become quickly gentrified,inundated with young, affluent types..and all that follows on from that.

While I'm glad the area hasn't gotten run down, the type of community is one I am beginning to feel I don't quite belong to anymore.

I'm sorry Louisa, but you are on a hiding to nothing trying to debate this issue on the East Dulwich Forum?its lifeblood is the kind of people you are talking about!

And Silvia, I have top say that is one of the most unpleasantly snobbish things i've read in a long time,wherever you come from!

[Louisa]

wavyline girl absolutely agree with you, and I know I'm fighting a losing battle on here because of the way I express my arguments, alongside the fact most of the vocal posting community will no doubt be from a certain background. It seems a pity such educated people find it so difficult to understand the damage they have done and continue to do to whole swaths of London during this gentrification process, and they call me blinkered? They actually believe in their obviously flawed and to quote someone else, 'rose tinted' view of the world around them. The views expressed by Silvia are not unusual, the belief that the middle classes are saviours who create enclaves of niceness with equally nice cultured people moving in alongside them. Transforming a cultural desert (in their opinion). I actually believe that they genuinely think they are right, that they are doing the existing community a favour. I believe they are not. The final line about Peckham summed that particular post up well. As for PT's comment about the traffic cones, I think you need to not take the literal meaning of that out of context with the metaphorical meaning.

Louisa.

[wavyline girl]

Believe me Louisa, you are not alone. I know lots of locals who will agree with you.

I think you are also up against people who have a culture of Entitlement.

Hang in there!

[PokerTime]

I'm from a poor working class background and understand completely your prejudice Louisa. It's not based on anything but a dislike for people that aren't like you.

As for metaphorical meanings, yeah sure, I just love the vandalism and littering of the working classes, because yes, that's what the working classes bring right? Can you not see how stupid your points are?

I'm no more a fan of overpriced pubs than you are, but people are in business to charge whatever they can get away with. Areas rise, and equally they decline. London has always been an attractive city for all kinds of migrants, primarily in pursuit of work. It has always been diverse, and the boundaries of that diversity have always shifted back and forth.

Of course there will be some arrogant middle-class people. The same can said of people everywhere, of every class.

Having lived amongst both working class and middle class communities equally, there are things to like about both of them, and equally there are things to dislike. But what I don't want to see, is a return to a time, not so long ago, where the parks were run down, where North Peckham was a no-go area, where asb and crime were more prolific, where fighting was a regular saturday night event at the local pub etc. There is no charm in any of that.

[Zebedee Tring]

I agree 100%, PokerTime. One can't generalise about people who come from different classes. Or rather, to avoid annoying those people who don't like people sounding too middle class and starting sentences with the word "one", you can't generalise about people who come from different classes.

[Sophron]

In the interest of balance I would like to add that there are those of us who have been here for a long time (25 years+) with ties to the area going back generations and who are delighted with on going gentrification, much better than the opposite which is what happened to Rye Lane(which used to be called the Golden Mile due to the quality of shopping etc.)

As some one stated on a different thread, it's not uncommon for people from around here to say that they cant wait to get out and they've been saying it for years. I certainly don't look back to the 70's and 80's and reminisce for the area as it was then.

[JDR]

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