What the hell is happening to our babies?

[????]

"I doubt anyone was lazy and negligent".....mmmmmm.

[????]

An initial investigation found evidence of "poor quality practice, management and supervision of staff" .....according to the BBC...already sounds like negligence is there....

[Keef]

???? and microbite, can you say unreservedly that if you went to a house where such things were happening, you'd pick up on it? No, didn't think so.

[microbite]

No, but if I went in there sixty times and I saw the child, dirty, dishevelled, bruised, upset, distressed (erm, broken spine and broken ribs, he must have been in absolute agony and have been crying at some point) yes I would. I'm sorry if my opinion has upset the Social Workers on this site, but there you go, my opinion.

[Asset]

No, maybe quids and microbite not, but aren't people in the position of social work trained to pick up on these things?

[SeanMacGabhann]

The 60 visits is constantly mentioned but you and I have no scale of reference.Given the jobs that these people do and some of the homes they do go to, is 60 times a lot. I know it sounds a lot to me but is it unusual in that line of work? If it is then clearly someone has in quids words, dropped the ball. But if it isn't, different questions need to be asked.

Is seeing a very distressed, filthy child that unusal either? You might be of a mind to say that people who can't look after their children properly shouldn't be allowed children (and that's a whole different argument) but you can't accuse all of them of killing or abusing their children as these people did.

As for the broken back thing, I would like to hear a doctor's voice on this. And hasn't that doctor been suspended (all but sacked) anyway?

Quids said

If I was in charge of Haringey I would like that figure published as well, and compared to other councils. From an investigattaive stance, no a pre-judgment stance.

[Asset]

the child had probably given up crying a long time before

[trinity]

I'm firmly with quids and microbite on this one. The signs of severe neglect and abuse were there and the professionals who we trust to protect these vunerable children (the doctors, social workers and police) did not do their job properly.

Do I believe I would have picked up on it if I had visited? Yes.

The injuries the child sustained over a period of months are not normal and can not be explained away.

I think the professionals in this case did not put the child first. That is the only thing of importance.

[mockney piers]

I'm at a loss as to who you think they were putting first.

Armchair punditry over a football manager's ability is fine, but we have no idea what these people see day in day out, the nastiness, hatred, bile, depression, suffering, hope, failure, love, addiction, ignorance, pressure, bureaucracy, care, fulfilment and despair that go with the job and the people they interact with.

Calling for the sackings of experienced people based upon the ignorant bleatings of a savage media who have seized upon one case is frankly disgusting. I for one have the utmost respect for these people.

Incompetents do function in every walk of life (god knows I've suffered enough idiotic self-serving project and departmental managers in my time) and if an independent investigation finds that to be the case then so be it, heaven forbid they ever have to answer to the mob justice or the sort of kangaroo court judgements offered here.

[Keef]

First, I'm not a social worker. Second, and I don't know the answer to this, but how long was the abuse going on for? It may be that during most of these 60 visits the child was healthy. Third, no social workers are not trained to identify physical abuse. Forth, the mother, by all accounts, had been learning how to hide things from social workers her whole life. Just who out of the 60 visitors would you see fired, the social worker? Their line manager? The director? Do you not think that those people that visited are not laying awake trying to remember something they missed. I am sure they are punishing themselves quite enough!

[trinity]

There are a number of things that I think may have been put before the child such as

the mother's rights

the mother's needs

the effort involved in updating the database of case notes

the time required to liaise effectively with other agencies

the desire to deal with the next less demanding case or patient

The irritation the professionals may have felt at having to deal with yet another incompetent parent

The extra work needed if a child is to be removed from his parent.

[microbite]

I don't think there were 60 visitors, I think there were 60 visits recorded with the child and mother. Maybe they are losing sleep, or maybe, as may possibly be the case (as only letters of reprimand have been sent out to the parties involved so far), trying to brush it all under the carpet, hope it all goes away, they might even look for a scapegoat within their own organisation if they can in fact even bother to go that far, other than that it will do the usual rounds, statements will be made i.e. "this must never happen again", blah blah, "we have to review our policies" have heard it all before! each time something like this happens, they just refuse to take any responsibility full stop.

[Keef]

There are a number of things that I think may have been put before the child such as

the mother's rights

the mother's needs

the effort involved in updating the database of case notes

the time required to liaise effectively with other agencies

the desire to deal with the next less demanding case or patient

The irritation the professionals may have felt at having to deal with yet another incompetent parent

The extra work needed if a child is to be removed from his parent.

All possible, but equally could be none of the above.

As I said, I'm not a social worker, but I do work for social services as another kind of professional, and I have had involvement in child protection cases, and the social workers I have worked with have all been passionate about the children. They are human beings too, and have the same feelings as anyone else.

It is unlikely that a social worker will think, I fancy an easy day, so I think I'll just forget about that complex case where the child is at risk.

[MadWorld74]

As I type there is a raging debate taking place on the Jeremy Vine show BBC 2, about this very subject.....interesting listening.

[jumpinjackflash]

giggirl Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I have tried really really hard not to have a

> knee-jerk reaction to this. But I've failed. I

> tried to ignore the media coverage but I saw some

> at lunchtime and I had to take myself off to a

> meeting room and lock the door so that I could

> weep. I want the people who tortured and killed

> this child to die a horrible and slow death

> spitting blood. I truly hope that when they get

> to prison the other inmates feel the same way.

amen giggirl - I totally agree with you there.

[RosieH]

microbite Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

Maybe they are losing sleep, or maybe, as

> may possibly be the case (as only letters of

> reprimand have been sent out to the parties

> involved so far), trying to brush it all under the

> carpet, hope it all goes away, they might even

> look for a scapegoat within their own organisation

> if they can in fact even bother to go that far,

> other than that it will do the usual rounds,

> statements will be made i.e. "this must never

> happen again", blah blah, "we have to review our

> policies" have heard it all before! each time

> something like this happens, they just refuse to

> take any responsibility full stop.

Microbite, I find this very very hard to believe - you're accusing them of a level of inhumanity that beggars belief. I don't believe they are doing this, not a jot of it.

I don't know any social workers, but my sister is a childcare lawyer. She deals with cases of this kind of abuse on a weekly basis - and she is desperate and depressed. She cries often on the phone to me telling me the details of cases she is working on - and they're grim, to the point that I've asked her not to tell me because I can't bear to hear it. She's depressed because she can't save everyone, because there are shades of grey and decisions between the lesser of two evils that no one should have to make.

But I take her word for it on social workers - she works with them day in day out - and she tells me that they too are depressed because they're doing an incredibly difficult job, under immense pressure and under resourced, knowing that if they make a mistake a child's life could be at risk or they could break up a family, and knowing that either way they're going to be villified by the public at large and hung out to dry by the press. And some of them suffer such severe depression and stress that they cannot work, which creates a vicious cycle of under-resourcing.

I don't believe a single person on here who says they would have spotted it. They might have done, but the plain fact is that no one knows. If an inquiry shows that they're guilty of something, then so be it and remedial steps need to be taken, but it's not for us to decide. In so doing, it just makes it increasingly less likely that anyone's going to take on a job in social services, and frankly I don't blame them.

[mockney piers]

Top post Rosie.

I too knew someone in Family Law and some of her tales (sans details obviously) could turn your hair grey overnight. There is a prevalence of domestic abuse at levels we'd really prefer not to face up to.

Clearly noone in government has proposed doing anything beyond firefighting a scratched surface (terrible mixed metaphor there).

More money and more professionals are needed, as you say backlashes like this can only serve to put people off entering social services.

[david_carnell]

I want the people who tortured and killed

> this child to die a horrible and slow death

> spitting blood. I truly hope that when they get

> to prison the other inmates feel the same way.

I'm finding this quite disturbing.

What you are effectively calling for is the physical abuse of another human being or state-sanctioned murder of criminals. Either way, the unsubtle glee with which it is being proposed leaves a rather unpleasant stench. There is no doubt that the people responsible and convicted of this, most appalling of crimes will deserve, and receive, harsh sentences. But calling for these sorts of vengeful, sadistic acts is not any sort of advert for civilised society.

[microbite]

That is extreme, but they wouldn't do it again though would they! and the thought of a serious punishment or proper consequences for their actions (although I don't actually condone the death penalty) might deter those who are even contemplating repeating these attrocious crimes. To be honest you get more time in prison for defrauding the Tax Man, insurance scams and bank thefts (well anything to do with money really) than you do for killing/abusing a child, how can you not expect people to have a knee jerk reaction?

So no-one (apart from the parents + friend) is at fault then? you can't seriously be saying that

[david_carnell]

I hereby challenge you to find me one example of a child-killer given a more lenient sentence than someone convicted of tax-fraud.

Or you can just retract your ridiculous hyperbole and we can carry on as adults.

[Keef]

So no-one (apart from the parents + friend) is at fault then? you can't seriously be saying that

The system, not an individual, is at fault, but if you have proposals / money for a better system, I'd love to hear it.

The system is as it is exactly because of a similar case, and to make sure it couldn't hapen again. Now what?

[mockney piers]

The system's imperfect because people are imperfect, if they weren't there wouldn't be any need for safety nets and social services (leave alone wars and stuff you know) in the first place.

With that blindingly obvious truism aside, we have to accept that an average of 5 children will be killed by strangers every year. we can try to be careful as parents and individuals but it boils down to luck if the weirdo will be in your neighbourhood when he strikes.

Likewise 3,000 people will die on our roads this year, and next year. Cars are better and safer, but people aren't, some are accidents waiting to happen, that's just what people are.

People like this, or michael ryan will occasionally go a bit postal and something horrible will occur. There always seems to be a need to call out for blame. And maybe something could have been done.

I'm willing to bet this chap had an alcoholic abusive father, I'm willing to bet this woman has gone through cycle after cycle of dependency on abusive partners, I'm willing to bet this chap is an alcoholic himself, a failure, abusive, a bully, pone to uncontrollable rage.

There are a trillion points along both these people's chains that someone could have helped, a social worker when they were young and vulnerable, a doctor who could have spotted the signs, a teacher who could have nurtured some self belief, a neighbour who didn't turn a blind eye/ear, a different path could have been chosen,.

Likewise in their own descent into addiction and despair there would have been any number of points of failure and who are we to say it was this social worker or this supervisor's fault.

People slip through the net all the time, and this woman is probably near institutionalised in her lifelong dealings with the welfare state and doubtless her almost pathological need to deal with it from a point of deceit.

These people slipped through the net and the level of abuse wasn't predicted, hindsights a bitch isn't she.

As the old expression goes, shit happens. Let's earn from it and move on, but do you know what, we'll have another story like this next year. Sorry.

ps I've made a million assumptions above, but no more than anyone else professing to know the details of the case intimately having read the metro/sun/mail/guardian (delete as appropriate)

pps though I may doubt the chances myself, does noone believe in the possibility of redemption, jeez didn't anyone like that morgan freeman character?

[Cassius]

Keef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So no-one (apart from the parents + friend) is at

> fault then? you can't seriously be saying that

>

> The system, not an individual, is at fault, but if

> you have proposals / money for a better system,

> I'd love to hear it.

>

> The system is as it is exactly because of a

> similar case, and to make sure it couldn't hapen

> again. Now what?

Sorry - was it the system that bit the childs ear, that pulled out his fingernails and broke his back or was it a sad and evil human being?

[Moos]

Right, that's it. I'm not reading this thread any more. I didn't want to know that. My own fault for reading, but no more for me.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Cassius - are you confusing the perpetrators of this horrible crime with the individuals on the social services who are seemingly now being hunted for their scalp/job

When Keef is talking about individuals not being to blame he is defending the social workers not the people who actually did this.