Palestinian PR

[Otta]

Yeah there are some nice facebook pages / groups of (usually younger) people from both sides trying to promote peace and respect. Unfortunately for every one of those there are 10 pages of utter shit from dick heads.

[Jah Lush]

It's all Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour's fault. What right did the British have in giving away someone else's land?

[david_carnell]

I guess it made a change from taking it.

[vgrant]

In his defence ( urgh) He did say that this occupation should not impact the existing non jewish population at all.

[Jah Lush]

If only he'd had the benefit of hindsight.

[DaveR]

"There has to be an incentive for Hamas to give up armed resistence, no?"

Unfortunately, Hamas' existence and popularity is essentially predicated on armed resistance.

" "side endlessly congratulating itself on how clearly right it is and getting 9mock) indignant about stuff." "

that is gross misrepresentation as well - this mock-indignace. Who exactly are you to call what's happening, and reaction to it "mock"?"

To be clear, the description 'mock' indignation does not refer to reactions to events in Gaza, but reactions to posts on this forum. Use of the phrase "gross misrepresentation' is a case in point.

[StraferJack]

Slippery when you want to be intcha

Events in gaza, on this forum wherever. What's with the mock?

And "endlessly congratulating itself"

What planet are you on

I don't see much congratulation and no mock indignation

But you and your high and mighty " I see no debate only argument" when several people have taken efforts to suggest a way forward?

This seems to be some weird game for some people.

[????]

El Pibe Wrote:

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> But that's not strictly true either is it.

>

> Egypt is an ally, Jordan doesn't care, Syria had

> grudging accommodation but wanted the Golan back

> (which incidentally is now being drilled for oil),

> but I reckon would gladly become an ally for

> Israeli help. Lebanon never had a problem, but

> Hezbollah sprung up as a resistance movement

> following an Israeli invasion and occupation.

>

> black and white is ALWAYS a bit grey isn't it

The undemocratic despots in charge of these two (Egypt/Jordan) see Israel as an 'ally' and 'don't care' - the people or even democracy, where it's 'allowed' in the middle east - would suggest that the people see Israel as the enemy (see Hamas, see the Muslim Brotherhood), heck, see Iran if you want to throw in another 'great democracy'. And theotocracies too have hardly much comfort for the state of Israel (ISIS and their Caliphate...now where are they on the existance ofIsrael?).

The future's grim because most people in the region don't want Israel there, Full Stop. And this combined with the extremes of two religons (one which increasingly combines martydom with its fanatiscm) and the other which claims the Old Testament gives it a holy right to land rather than International Law.

Siege mentality, matrydom and religous fanaticism - I can't see it ever ending until we get rid of religon......

[Jah Lush]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> The future's grim because most people in the

> region don't want Israel there, Full Stop. And

> this combined with the extremes of two religons

> (one which increasingly combines martydom with its

> fanatiscm) and the other which claims the Old

> Testament gives it a holy right to land rather

> than International Law.

>

> Siege mentality, matrydom and religous fanaticism

> - I can't see it ever ending until we get rid of

> religon......

This.

[Otta]

Yep, that.

[DaveR]

So, hilariously, I'm being slippery when I distinguish between (1) war and (2) people talking about said war on an Internet forum. I think a perspective check might be in order. Similarly in relation to comments like 'people think it's a game'. SJ, just because people don't take you as seriously as you might like doesn't mean opinions on the actual issues are not sincerely held.

[StraferJack]

What's a good way to foster fanaticism and radicals? Killing hundreds of civilians

That will keep things fermenting nicely

Just writing the whole thing off as unfixable or bound to end badly is too fatalistic surely

People appear to forget just how intransigent the parties were in the situation on these islands were. How many bodies were going missing or blown up

At some point someone somewhere will show an act of faith. And it will need brave leaders to act on it. And it will need pressure from extrnal countries

Whatever the beliefs of the various neighbouring countries, Israel is behaving abominably. You cannot watch the footage, count the victims on all sides, see the disparity in weapons and say they are all as bad as each other

You cannot say well if one behaves badly what do they expect. How does that differ from people who watched the twin towers fall and clucked "well America had it coming"

You are watching a country armed to the teeth obliterate children who have ineffective pea shooting rockets. And you are spending your time bitching about twitter and usual suspects and mock outrage?

[StraferJack]

DaveR - wow. Just... wow

[Captain Marvel]

Would everyone feel better if there were more dead Israelis?

You know, to even it up

[StraferJack]

don't you think that's the wrong direction of travel Steve?

[Captain Marvel]

Quick as a flash Sean

[Otta]

"Whatever the beliefs of the various neighbouring countries, Israel is behaving abominably."

Yeah, no one is saying they're not going way OTT.

"You cannot watch the footage, count the victims on all sides, see the disparity in weapons and say they are all as bad as each other"

Yes you can, it's just one party has the biggest guns.

[DaveR]

"What's a good way to foster fanaticism and radicals?"

By continuing to launch largely ineffective rockets attacks against random civilian targets, inviting retaliation, whilst taking cash from your foreign sponsors and grandstanding to your own people about how you are sticking it to the oppressor

"At some point someone somewhere will show an act of faith. And it will need brave leaders to act on it. And it will need pressure from extrnal countries."

Correct - and one of those brave leaders needs to be Palestinian

"Whatever the beliefs of the various neighbouring countries, Israel is behaving abominably. You cannot watch the footage, count the victims on all sides, see the disparity in weapons and say they are all as bad as each other"

No, but you can recognise that, for as long as Hamas attacks continue, any Israeli govt that doesn't retaliate will be replaced by one that will. There are lots of differing views among the Israelis, but not while the rockets are falling. Hamas know this too.

"You cannot say well if one behaves badly what do they expect. How does that differ from people who watched the twin towers fall and clucked "well America had it coming" "

Unworthy even of you.

[StraferJack]

"you can recognise that, for as long as Hamas attacks continue, any Israeli govt that doesn't retaliate will be replaced by one that will"

is that a fact?

I'd swear I have heard similar arguments before. And they were wrong. I don't for one moment accept this one

As long as Israel continues to expand they will face resistance - that seems reasonable to assume? I doubt any other county would behave much differently (religion or no)

Unworthy? How so? People who said that about America had it coming were wrong, weren't they? Am i saying something different?

[Loz]

Captain Marvel Wrote:

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> Would everyone feel better if there were more dead Israelis?

>

> You know, to even it up

Seamus Milne in the Guardian went very close to suggesting this, though it was more along the lines of unless there are more dead Israelis there would be no end to Israel?s occupation.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/16/gaza-shameful-injustice-israel-attacks-occupied-people

[localsilly]

The following statement by Noam Chomsky indicates a different stand toward Israeli aggression than Prof. Chomsky has revealed in the past:

"The incursion and bombardment of Gaza is not about destroying Hamas. It is not about stopping rocket fire into Israel, it is not about achieving peace.

The Israeli decision to rain death and destruction on Gaza, to use lethal weapons of the modern battlefield on a largely defenseless civilian population, is the final phase in a decades-long campaign to ethnically-cleanse Palestinians.

Israel uses sophisticated attack jets and naval vessels to bomb densely-crowded refugee camps, schools, apartment blocks, mosques, and slums to attack a population that has no air force, no air defense, no navy, no heavy weapons, no artillery units, no mechanized armor, no command in control, no army? and calls it a war. It is not a war, it is murder.

?When Israelis in the occupied territories now claim that they have to defend themselves, they are defending themselves in the sense that any military occupier has to defend itself against the population they are crushing. You can't defend yourself when you're militarily occupying someone else's land. That's not defense. Call it what you like, it's not defense.?

[vgrant]

you know you are playing with fire when you dare to quote Noam on here ( Noam chomsky, otherwise know as the bleeding heart liberal LIAR chomsky, gencide denier and fascist dictator apologist blah blah blah )

[NewtwoED]

It's a toughie, to say the least. Both sides have valid arguments - whether Hamas are oppressed freedom fighters or anti Semitic terrorists depends largely on your own experience (or view) of the situation.

To offer a thought re casualty ratios, imagine a situation where an individual intent on causing you harm fired ten shots at you, but happened to miss with all shots. If you fired back once and killed your aggressor because you happened to be a better shot (or possessed a more accurate weapon) would that be unfair?

Surely intent to destroy is the same irrespective of how effectively it is enacted.

It is a terrible situation, and heartbreaking, but both sides suffer pain and share guilt - the kids on the beach and the kidnapped teens are both just as pointless and cruel an end to young lives.

The question I find myself asking is why the Israel-Palestine situation garners more media coverage than similarly tragic situations.

Take Ukraine - recent coverage following MH17 mentioned in a casual aside that around a thousand have died in the recent conflict.

Boko Haram, pushed into media consciousness recently via twitter have been involved in the deaths of around 1,500 this year.

These situations are just as destructive for those affected but don't seem to draw the same bullet-by-bullet coverage and comment.

Feuds, aggression, revenge, war, terrorism, survival - if you are unfortunate enough to be in the situation where you or your family are under direct threat then your acceptance of what the justifiable response is can be a lot more extreme than it might otherwise be.

Same for both sides, no winners, no real evil. Just humans, in fear or rage, reacting to the situation they are in. Same as we have done for years and will continue to do ad exitium.

Overall possibly a more pro Israel post, so to balance it out listen to the song Nakba by Slovo from a

Palestinian standpoint, if you have the chance.

The line about the 'love of her life' brings tears to my eyes.

[BrandNewGuy]

vgrant Wrote:

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> you know you are playing with fire when you dare

> to quote Noam on here ( Noam chomsky, otherwise

> know as the bleeding heart liberal LIAR chomsky,

> gencide denier and fascist dictator apologist blah

> blah blah )

He is not a genocide denier - with regard to the Holocaust, he expressed his profound disagreement with various European laws (in France and Germany) that make it a criminal offence to 'deny' the Holocaust. That's a very different thing.

[Loz]

BrandNewGuy Wrote:

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> He is not a genocide denier - with regard to the Holocaust, he expressed his profound disagreement

> with various European laws (in France and Germany) that make it a criminal offence to 'deny' the

> Holocaust. That's a very different thing.

Which ties in with his rather excellent quote: "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."