Congratualtions to the State of Israel.

[mockney piers]

"At end of day it's a volatile region which has been like that long before oil and religion."

It's so nice and superior to be a civilised European, makes you feel kind of smug doesn't it to live in a continent where we didn't go in for that fighting wars malarkey and putting towns to the sword nonsense for thousands of years.

Oh, hang on a minute...

[matthew123]

What!? We have to bury our head in the sand, or should that be mud, with shame due to behaviour of our ancesters?

[Huguenot]

That's a great question Don Carnelli, and I remember it myself, but as with you I can't place it. Very frustrating.

Wasn't Love Actually was it?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

I remember where the quote came from:-

Twas in The Rovers Return when Ena Sharples posed the question to Minnie Caldwell and Marta Longhurst.

Can't recall the reply as it was in '61....

[mockney piers]

No Matthew, a) we've killed over half a million Iraqis in recent times, so less of the ancestors, but mainly b) the nonsense about volatile region is just a patronising way of suggesting some sort of inevitability about it all, which of course needn't be true at all.

And to some extent who are we to tell Israel off for what they are doing? They've still got another 599 thousand people to go to catch up with the 'coalition of the willing's' death toll.

[DaveR]

"we've killed over half a million Iraqis"

Not sure about that number

Not saying any particular figure is completely accurate, but the IBC critique of the Lancet figure (650,000, but even then 31% attributed to the coalition) is quite compelling.

[mockney piers]

The Lancet report applies the same methodology that has come up with deaths in many other conflicts such as Rwanda, where there is no political need to question numbers and those figures remain more or less undisputed.

Having said that conditions were far from ideal and most of the research was done by people on the ground who may not have been able to get the wider picture and there may be some confusion between deaths, undocumented prisoners (something to be proud of there) and refugees.

IBC's analysis of deaths during the invasion strike me (gut feel) as way off, that much ordnance chucked at towns and villages will cause more havoc than that, and with entire villages flattened, who would remain to document the deaths, how many simply vapourised. (read generation kill for one elite marine unit's experience of the first 25 days, and times that up by however many units comprise the 300,000 odd troops that invaded, and factor in some more for the trigger happy reservists. Unscientific but compelling.)

Either way 90-98,0000 is still a ludicrously high figure and a source of absolute shame that we were in any way involved; I suspect the truth lies somewhere in between the studies however.

But it boils down to are we happier with 50 deaths a day over a 5 year period or 250 deaths a day? Personally I'm not happy with either.

[matthew123]

So we should wait for Israel to catch up in the numbers game before they feel obliged to listen to the wicked West?

[mockney piers]

I can't even begin to work out the logic in that post Matthew.

[matthew123]

You said "who are we to tell Israel off for what they are doing? They've still got another 599 thousand people to go to catch up with the 'coalition of the willing's' death toll."

[mockney piers]

I think you're supposed to infer that we're in no position to preach, not that they should kill more.

We* lost moral authority the day we invaded a country unprovoked on a false pretext funnily enough.

*OK the US did, not sure how much we had left.

[matthew123]

Well we can sit on the sidelines and wash our hands of it all - or we can suggest formulas for peace. If the former approach was forever taken - as all countries have been guilty of the same actions or crimes if you like at some time or another - then we would be, or soon be, living in a lawless society without responsibility.

There is always a counter argument for pretty much everything in this part of the world.

I know you are not proposing we watch Israel chalk up a cricket score but regardless of the fact Israel is not going to listen to our "preaching" - a lack of doing anything sends out the wrong message to the rest of the middle east who will continue to pedal the myth that the West wants to drive them all into the sea and is only interested in their oil.

[mockney piers]

I'm pretty sure that the West's preoccupation is with the oil, though not sure why we'd want to drive them into the sea.

We tried to topple the Ottomans with the specific goal of freeing up Iraq, Persia and the Arabian peninsular for exploitation of oil. Once the british navy moved from coal to oil powered warships our entire strategy became about securing oil resources.

Our first disaster in Iraq was a bout oil. Hitler's invasion of Russia may have had a lunatic racist/idealist element, but it too was about securing the caucuses and if possible the middle east for oil. We toppled the Mossadeq democracy to stop the Persians owning their own oil resources, and all our subsequent dealings and compliant totalitarian regimes are entirely to do with oil, so you can hardly blame those in the middle east for peddling that particular 'myth'.

Well, maybe a few loons in the states more concerned with the rapture than oil, but heh.

Until our society's utter dependence on black gold changes, then that's strategy summed up there, oil. Dress it up as democracy or WMDs if you like but an err oily rose by any other name is still err ... oily.

But you're right, Israel doesn't care what we think. It does care about the States, and it is entirely within their power to stop this.

[matthew123]

One thing I would say, and this might be a bit cynical, I do get the impression that Israel are very much working to a deadline before next Tuesday when the new President Barack takes office with possibly a new set of rules.

[mockney piers]

Aye, I don't think the timing is a coincidence. An election coming up in Israel doesn't hurt either.

Politics is a cynical old game isn't it.

[AllforNun]

Ooh what a surprise, the silver spooned prince harry from Saudi Arabia is back calling for Jihad against Israel.

[LegalEagle-ish]

I hope Obama puls the plug on the millions in aid that goes to arm the Israelis. The whole thing is only able to happen because of the support of the US, so I don't think the timing is accidental either.

They seem to want to wipe out as many Palestinians as possible while they still have the chance.

I pray the people responsible end up in the International Criminal Court, along with Bush and Blair.

Does anyone know if the Palestinians have signed up to the ICC treaty - I can't remember - but if they have, as victims, they can bring up a case against Israeli, US or UK perpetrators, even though the perps countries may not have signed the treaty. From what I remember though, it can't help Iraq or Afghanistan because it only covers acts that are post signing.

Just found the list of signatories - No Us, no Israel, and unfortunately no Palestine

[Huguenot]

I think if the genuine objective was to wipe out as many Palestinians as possible that they could have done a better job.

There's no evidence that the Israeli army is inefficient at murder, so I think that means that the objective isn't as you suggest.

[Michael Palaeologus]

As ever I agree with Hugeunot. If the IDF had wanted to wipe Palestine and the Palestinians off the map they would have done it by now - probably immediatly post 9/11 when George W Bush wouldnt have done anything to stop them.

However the IDF do seem to have a mentality which says that Arabs ONLY understand the mailed fist and that any compromise will lead to more dead Israelis. Equally some radicalsed Palestinians seem to have a view that the only good Israeli is a dead Israeli - thus the two sides knock seven bells out of each other and in the process many innocent people on both sides suffer. This ensures that the hostile views of the key decision makers on both sides (i.e. the ones with fingers on triggers)are reinforced. Rockets hitting Israel leads to bombs hitting Gaza.

I condemn the Israeli killing of the innocent and I also condemn Palestinian killing of the innocent. I support the right of both Israelis and Palestinians to live in their own independent states.

Today it is the Israeli's being condemned, tomorrow it will be Hammas for blowing up a bus or a restaurant or dropping a rocket on a school.

Taking sides against either misses the point that both are equally guilty.

[AllforNun]

Balls....

and...funny that Israel announce a ceasefire on the day of Obamas "coronation". He has already got blood on his hands, cynical and wet at that.

[snorky]

People still seem to think that this Obama fellow is the new messiah it would seem

He has stated that there will be continued funding & support for Israel already, as part of his campaign- he wont upset the Christian bloc who are rubbing their hands with glee as the Middle East ratchets up and the Final battle edges ever closer and they can experience the rapture ( read up on it )

But hes Black and was Poor I hear you say.....he is and he was obviously, but he still took the same route of lawyer/ Ivy League etc that is usual for presidents - hes hardly Eugene feckin Debs is he ?

Read my lips - nothing will change - another production line politician with a USP - dont believe the hype as popular rap combo and all round entertainers Public Enemy said

[matthew123]

Whose pulling whose strings in all this, it might be cynical but are these skirmishes ever welcomed by Israeli strategists.

[Mick Mac]

Spot on snorky - democracy is majority rule - therefore no one individual is likely to make significant differences - and obama is likely to be too weak a Presiden to make others tow his line.

Hugenot - I agree Isreal could do a more blatent job in Palestine (god forbid) but I think Jeremey Bowen has the inside track on this and he suggested Israel will keep one eye on the international view of what they do - they are incredibly calculated in that they begin these attacks when the international community is on Christmas holiday and they work out how far they can go and for how long before the world (through a weak NATO) calls for an end to their actions. All of this is as Jeremy advises, pre determined to some extent. Basically they want to give Hammas and anyone living in palestine such a roasting that they will be incapable of provoking Israle for a long time to come - they will do this time and time again - beating Hammas down each time.

This time however I think they have killed so many children that the reprisal will be huge and we are in for a bloody war. This will never end - certainly Obama is of no importance.

[Michael Palaeologus]

Quite so. Bad as each other.

Balls? No - just not comfortable.

[AllforNun]

no not as bad as each other...balls again !

it was not long ago that Israel's own terrorist's were blowing up the brits in the king Davids Hotel.....

Whatever the right or wrong, bad as each other argument i think you will find that this latest piece of stupidity on the part of Israel may really come back on them big time. It was a stupid political decision. They will have to bomb the iranian reactors to get back in favour with the international community.....oops there it is !