On the Ball (new Football Focus)

[Mick Mac]

Lard - I don't think you can blame spending power for rafa's lack of sucess in the Premiership and in comparing spending with United you are likely to be on a loser in that when you do the Spending v Premiership titles ratio there is only one winner.

I'm with SP , they buy one or two quality players per season, and those who are good stick around and provide quality returns to the club for years - Rafa's policy is more lucky dip.

But at the end of the day Rafa underachieves in my opinion. Interesting that you think he overachieves.

I think its very honourable that so many Pool fans back him, but I think its time for a change and see what someone else can achieve.

(Sorry Anna)

[Sandperson]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> I think its very honourable that so many Pool fans

> back him, but I think its time for a change and

> see what someone else can achieve.

David Moyes? ;-)

[????]

I've just C&Pd what I said about Rafa pre-season...

Rafa got lucky in Istanbul (and, *spits*, Cardiff) thanks to Stevie G...he would and probaly should have gone a few years back. Liverpool don't look capable of winning the Premiership without a huge amount of luck this year - no injuries and other teams suffering from key players .

I'm just not convinced by him

[Mick Mac]

I always thought Liverpool should have taken Martin O'Neill rather than going European. Contrary to some opinions his teams play very good football, very direct, but not long ball. I think his time may now have passed which would be a shame if he never managed a top 4 team.

[Atila Reincarnate]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> >

> > Fcuk me ragged you really do live in a dream

> > world, 3 - 0 to the Arsenal to get rid of the

> > waste of space in the Champs league that is

> > Celtic. As for the game against the Mancs at

> the

> > weekend I don't think we'll be beaten.

>

>

> 1 Gold Star v 0 Gold Stars Atila.

But nobody gives a shit about your, yawn, history. In fact we care even less about your mickey mouse club than we do about the Mancs and Spuds.

[Keef]

I always thought Liverpool should have taken Martin O'Neill rather than going European.

I wanted O'Neill at the time, and still think it would have been a good move.

[Mick Mac]

Atila Reincarnate Wrote:

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> Mick Mac Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > >

> > > Fcuk me ragged you really do live in a dream

> > > world, 3 - 0 to the Arsenal to get rid of the

> > > waste of space in the Champs league that is

> > > Celtic. As for the game against the Mancs at

> > the

> > > weekend I don't think we'll be beaten.

> >

> >

> > 1 Gold Star v 0 Gold Stars Atila.

>

>

> But nobody gives a shit about your, yawn, history.

> In fact we care even less about your mickey mouse

> club than we do about the Mancs and Spuds.

I'm sure you can be nicer Atila - go on try really, really, hard.

[Atila Reincarnate]

Mick Mac Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Atila Reincarnate Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Mick Mac Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > >

> > > > Fcuk me ragged you really do live in a

> dream

> > > > world, 3 - 0 to the Arsenal to get rid of

> the

> > > > waste of space in the Champs league that is

> > > > Celtic. As for the game against the Mancs

> at

> > > the

> > > > weekend I don't think we'll be beaten.

> > >

> > >

> > > 1 Gold Star v 0 Gold Stars Atila.

> >

> >

> > But nobody gives a shit about your, yawn,

> history.

> > In fact we care even less about your mickey

> mouse

> > club than we do about the Mancs and Spuds.

>

>

> I'm sure you can be nicer Atila - go on try

> really, really, hard.

Not where these clubs are concerned.

[Keef]

But nobody gives a shit about your, yawn, history. In fact we care even less about your mickey mouse club than we do about the Mancs and Spuds.

Atila, I thought you were a history man. I've lost count of tyhe times you've reminded Jah of when Spurs last won a title.

[matthew123]

Every Manager makes mistakes in transfer market and Alex Ferguson is no exception, and neither is Wenger immune.

Rafa does like to wheel and deal. I've not got a problem splashing the cash on likes of Robbie Keane, Babel, Lucas and Aquilani as they all have (had) potential to improve first team. The pocket money players are in general a mistake for that money adds up eventually to missed big money purchases and secondly it stunts the development of youngsters.

Not sure how many kids Rafa has signed from overseas but it's a shame that someone like Nemeth with his scoring record (and now capped at international level for Hungry) cannot get a look in because we have Voronin and N'gog on our books. With our options upfront looking weak that sadness is compounded with us letting Nemeth go on loan to AEK Athens as a sweetner for a Greek defender who is not match fit and is highly unlikely to ever start a PL match for Liverpool.

I still think that when Liverpool are on top form, under Rafa, they have no equal. But like last season it's going to take a while before we are back at full power, performance wise, so just hope we are still in touch at the top.

[Keef]

I see Lescott's move top City is completed. Good money in the end for Everton, and good work to Moyes for making it difficult, and pushing the price up. Lescott has shown a lack of class in this affair, and Hughes has shown arrogance. Hope the player gets injured, and the club hire a good manager.

[Mick Mac]

matthew123 Wrote:

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>

> I still think that when Liverpool are on top form,

> under Rafa, they have no equal. But like last

> season it's going to take a while before we are

> back at full power, performance wise, so just hope

> we are still in touch at the top.

I hope you are right Matt, but I'd suggest it might be another near miss in the end. And Shankly and Paisley will be rolling on their graves at the thought of a manager being allowed so many near misses.

[matthew123]

If it came down to it no Anfield regular would want Rafa to get the boot, he still has a lot of mileage.

Overall Liverpool are still a formidable opponent but if there is one thing to improve it would be, more adventure at 0-0.

[matthew123]

Keef Wrote:

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> I see Lescott's move top City is completed. Good

> money in the end for Everton, and good work to

> Moyes for making it difficult, and pushing the

> price up. Lescott has shown a lack of class in

> this affair, and Hughes has shown arrogance. Hope

> the player gets injured, and the club hire a good

> manager.

What ever happened to freedom of movement?

Secondly, the only arrogant Manager in this affair is David Moyes who claimed his Club, who btw have to give away promotions every home game to fill seats, was the "People's Club" on Merseyside!

[Keef]

rst to call players mercanary for moving anywhere.

I just don't like the way Lescott has dealt with it, I don't have a problem that he wanted to move. Hughes should be thankful for the position he finds himself in, but instead, is talking like he's "the man", and that he is in charge of the richest club, because he deserves it, and is the best. Tool!

[Annasfield]

> > I hope you are right Matt, but I'd suggest it

> might be another near miss in the end. And Shankly

> and Paisley will be rolling on their graves at the

> thought of a manager being allowed so many near

> misses.

That is possibly the most ridiculous statement I have ever read on this thread.

Shanks and Paisley would be horrified with the way that modern managers are treated. At least in their day it was more of a level playing field.

Edit - Cheers MM, I did know it was you, just deleted the wrong bit.

[Mick Mac]

That was me Anna - looks like you have attributed it to Matt. I stand by it though, I feel Houllier and Benitez have been give too long > 10 years between them.

[Sandperson]

I don't understand what you mean about the level playing field Anna? I assume you mean money? Up until our own yanks took over we were extremely sensibly managed financially, future looking, solid wage structure etc.

Having been the most dominant club in this country and Europe for as long as Liverpool were do you think it was just bad timing? i.e. United's success came with the Premiership era/huge TV and sponsorship money etc?

Where did the legacy go astray? Was it appointing foreign managers instead of prompting from within as Liverpool did before?

[Mick Mac]

Also, Shankly and Paisley were tough men who did not accept second best. They made the right signings and reaped the rewards.

Are the people who support Rafa generally too young to have supported both the Shankly and Paisley teams? I feel Liverpool have possibly the greatest fans in the world but perhaps not the best decision makers at the club to make the team successful.

Of course MU went through a long period chasing the dream before Ferguson so I'm sure you will get there, just not sure you will do it with Rafa.

[matthew123]

"bad timing" - hmmmmmm

...Last time Liverpool promoted from within was Roy Evans and he was just shocking. Although he had the best set of players in the country and often played some breathtaking football at Anfield - he was way too soft to keep them under control and perhaps the reason why they lacked a bit of backbone on their travels. Houllier or Rafa would have won a few titles with that squad no doubt about it. Likes of McManaman, Fowler, Collymore, Berger, Rob Jones would have walked into any of the subsequent teams upto and including today.

[lard]

Mick Mac Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lard - I don't think you can blame spending power

> for rafa's lack of sucess in the Premiership and

> in comparing spending with United you are likely

> to be on a loser in that when you do the Spending

> v Premiership titles ratio there is only one

> winner.

> I'm with SP , they buy one or two quality players

> per season, and those who are good stick around

> and provide quality returns to the club for years

> - Rafa's policy is more lucky dip.

>

> But at the end of the day Rafa underachieves in my

> opinion. Interesting that you think he

> overachieves.

>

> I think its very honourable that so many Pool fans

> back him, but I think its time for a change and

> see what someone else can achieve.

>

> (Sorry Anna)

It's pointless doing a spending versus titles ratio, because the title is not proportional, it's first past the post. For the last 15 years Utd have been the richest club, and have won the majority of the titles. Recently Chelsea have bankrolled a team, and have been the 2nd most successful. To win a tournament you have to beat both these two teams.

Ultimately it doesn't really matter, I want him as manager for more reasons than how many things we win with him. We haven't won the title it almost 20 years, so it's not as if I have expectations to win it. Only 3 managers have won the last 14 titles, so it's not as if there are others out there either.

As for Shankly turning in his grave, he only won 2 titles in his first 12 years (OK we started in the 2nd div), but part of the reason why he is held in esteem is that it was more than just the trophies. Best to have a manager who is in tune with the supporters, no?

[Mick Mac]

Ultimately it doesn't really matter, I want him as manager for more reasons than how many things we win with him.

If that's true Lard then that's very fair.

[lard]

Sandperson Wrote:

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> I don't understand what you mean about the level

> playing field Anna? I assume you mean money? Up

> until our own yanks took over we were extremely

> sensibly managed financially, future looking,

> solid wage structure etc.

>

> Having been the most dominant club in this country

> and Europe for as long as Liverpool were do you

> think it was just bad timing? i.e. United's

> success came with the Premiership era/huge TV and

> sponsorship money etc?

>

> Where did the legacy go astray? Was it appointing

> foreign managers instead of prompting from within

> as Liverpool did before?

You had Ferguson who all said and done is a great manager and he managed to peak at the right time (you won the first premiership). We had Souness who bought a few duff ones. Ferguson bought Cantona and a few good ones.

You then got lucky in that you could use the money you won to develop your ground easily, as it handily is on an industrial park with space around. You were then shrewd in promoting your brand. We on the other hand could not develop Anfield because it is in a whole load of terraced houses, and we were old fashioned in brand development. So you stretched away in revenue, building bigger ground, buying better players, winning more titles, attracting more fans etc.

[Sandperson]

Can I just say that we have been ONE of the richest clubs over that time period and for MOST of it it was becasue of good financial management. I'm not arguing just pointing out that it wasn't rich benefactors or putting up ticket prices to astronomical levels or anything like that, just good solid planning and management.

[matthew123]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> Ultimately it doesn't really matter, I want him as

> manager for more reasons than how many things we

> win with him.

>

> If that's true Lard then that's very fair.

Hmmm I can't see Bob Paisley agreeing with that one - he was a pretty ruthless Manager and even criticised Shankly in later years for holding onto players too long during the wilderness years of no trophies (67 to 72). Houllier arguably had a better relationship with fans than Rafa but in the end Houllier had to go, and if we ever reach a stage where Rafa also starts to take the Club backwards then it'll also be the exit for him. Having said that I think Rafa is still taking Liverpool foward and as I said earlier I think he still has a lot of mileage left.

The writing was on the wall for Houllier when the Kop stopped singing his name in his final months - even though he'd lost the support of most fans the previous summer.