One in Ten

[red devil]

Think you might need your tin hat sharpish after that one Mike...

[bigbadwolf]

Yeah and your sword.

[Mikecg]

Ha!

No seriously tho' I know its bad but it will never go away no matter how aware people are I personally put it down to the darker side of human nature, I don't think that rape is about sex mostly I think it's about controlling others.

[RosieH]

Like anyone with a brain would rise to it.

Mike, think you'll find that when you said:

No I think you'll find that my I think there's something in it though comment was about 35 year old spinsters and not about women getting violated.

that's what both BN5 and I were referring to, i.e. this post:

I agree with mick mac, my uncle always said if a woman has never been married by the time she's 35 theirs something wrong with them! controversial I know but hey I think there is something in it though.

Anyway, enough, I don't need to fight the corner for feminism when you do it so eloquently for me.

edited because I was unnecessarily rude

[bignumber5]

I would say it will never go away, it's a fact of life

Not so, mike. One person's decision to rape or otherwise abuse another, our currrently piss-poor awareness as a society and subsequently poor support services are not, and never should be, "a fact of life".

That's the whole point of the campaign.

Please can you consider, if only for a second, the possibility that your not believing in something which there is an awareness campaign for is, in itself, evidence that the campaign is necessary?

[Mikecg]

Look I have only given views of how I and some others perceive things I know it happens but what you gonna do about it, its a never ending story.

[RosieH]

Actually, I just edited my last post because I thought I was rude and it wasn't called for. However, having just read...

I know it happens but what you gonna do about it.

...I'm utterly disgusted. Mike you should be ashamed of yourself. That attitude is despicable and beneath contempt.

[red devil]

Rosie, genuine question, do you know what the 1 in 10 figure is based on?..

[Mikecg]

You may have misconstrued what I meant, I did not mean that I know people that are partaking in such activities I was just saying that people will commit these types of crime no matter what.

 

[Mick Mac]

Rosie/Annaj/Bignumber5 - I hope my most recent post above went some way to explaining better what I meant. I got no response which might mean I explained it better or might mean you've categorised me as a sexist "whatever" - but hopefully not. Anyway, I was being honest, but probably too blunt. Sometimes you make a point and the reaction you get is not expected and its only when you hear other peoples views you realise the point can be taken personally by reasonable people. Apologies.

[LegalEagle-ish]

Pretty much all the women I know well enough to talk on such a deep level have been, sexually assaulted, beaten up or raped by guys. I did martial arts for years to try to make sure it could never happen to me again.

[RosieH]

Yesterday, very much against my better judgment, I allowed myself to get quite wound up about this - I intend not to do so today. So. This is my best attempt at a reasoned response, but my impression Mick and Mike is that our opinions differ wildly on this - I'm unconvinced that I'm likely to change your minds, and I know for certain that you won't change mine. Nevertheless...

Mick Mac, I think your explanation did ameliorate only slightly your earlier statement, but unfortunately it's still an inflammatory and divisive opinion. To suggest that women in their 50s in positions of authority in an organisation are driven to the point of selfishness is sexist in the extreme. To suggest that women can only get ahead in the face of adversity by becoming hard-boiled bitches and the nice ones just don't cut it does you no credit - patronising women is what reinforces the glass ceiling. Why is a successful woman a bitch but a successful man just ballsy? Some women choose a career over children. Some women choose children over a career. Some women choose to have both. And it's our right to choose.

However, the point of this thread was not to state the case for feminism or women in the workplace. It was to raise awareness of a particular campaign. Mikecg, not sure what Chopper Reid is adding to your case. But as a more rational response to your comment yesterday, I do think that to say there's always going to be violence and what you gonna do about it, is pretty spineless. If there's something I don't like, by and large, what I'm going to do about it is try to change it: like kids carrying guns, like the use of torture or genocide, I don't think the world should sit idly by and say, meh, you know, man's just naturally violent innit. I don't doubt for a second man's inherently violent nature, but neither do I doubt man's huge and wonderful facility for taking responsibility and caring for its fellow man.

So what are we going to do about it? I would hope to raise awareness that might make some people think a little bit and talk a little bit and maybe change our minds a little bit, for instance:

- only approx 15% of rape cases are reported to the police - of those 15%, fewer than 6% result in conviction. Hopefully what we're going to do about it is help remove some of the stigma that surrounds sexual violence so that more women feel comfortable reporting it and help educate the public (i.e. potential jurors) so that more cases result in conviction with rapists being put behind bars

- remind politicians that this is an issue that matters - for instance, encourage Boris Johnson to stick to his mayoral campaign pledge to devote funds to new rape crisis centres from savings made by cutting his media and marketing team

- help remove some of the stigma surrounding domestic violence - so that a battered wife might feel more confident going to the police, and the police might take it more seriously (don't get me wrong, many do, but certainly not all), that someone who suspects that a friend might be in trouble feels more able to encourage them to talk about it and then do something about it, that someone else might recognise the violence in their own behaviour and do something about it

I think it's a worthwhile campaign.

[annaj]

*Stands and appluads RosieH*

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Right behind you Rosie.

I've dealt with the victim of domestic assault (hair pulled out, hot iron used on body, beatings, etc). It ain't pretty and as well as the physical trauma, you have years trying to build up self-esteem again. The only good thing is that the police and courts were marvellous at processing things and more importantly, believing the victim and acting to make her safe.

[Moos]

A truly extraordinary thread. I was baffled to see how a highlighting a campaign against violence perpetrated upon women was interpreted as an invitation to air prejudices ranging from women's unfitness to lead others to how they are really happier in the domestic arena and culminating in some positively medieval superstition. I almost expected to see the ducking stool out on Goose Green this morning.

RosieH, Annaj, BN5, thank you for your attempts to retain a level of sanity in the chaos. Huguenot, I suspect that you were being provocative but did you really interpret this campaign as an attack on men? Do you see campaigns against paedophilia as attacks on adults? Did you feel comfortable in the company of those that chose to range themselves on your side in the debate?

Celebrate life, peace, individuality and choice. This shouldn't have to be about men vs. women. RosieH, I too think this is a worthwhile campaign.

[Keef]

Well said.

[dulwichdreadlocks]

LegalEagle-ish Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Pretty much all the women I know well enough to

> talk on such a deep level have been, sexually

> assaulted, beaten up or raped by guys. I did

> martial arts for years to try to make sure it

> could never happen to me again.

I totally believe you. This is very, very sad. I don't really know what to say.

[LegalEagle-ish]

I was 14 and it made me fear all guys for a bit, but as someone who can't handle being scared, I became a hard hearted bitch for a while to compensate. Took me until my 40's until I was finally able to peel off some of the armour plating and soften my thorny exterior.

[brum]

I fully support the campaign to raise awareness of the terrible effects of domestic violence. I genuinely hope that it helps to bring about the radical change that's needed. It's unfortunate that, globally, in countries with vastly different cultures and beliefs to ours, such a change will be much, much harder to achieve. Excellent posts, particularly by Rosie.

Edited to add the final sentence.

[Mick Mac]

Noone disagrees that it is a worthwhile point made in the original thread. All right minded people abhor violence.

I however was responding to Huguenots point on female bosses, hence the sub plot developed along different lines from the original thread.

Women have it tough - they don't get treated equally and therefore many decide not to pursue their careers. This is a unfair but leaves us with a "subset" of older women in the workplace, not a full cross section. This is particularly acute in the legal and financial city firms. Some of these women and particularly in my firm are not nice people in any way shape or form. Of two in our firm, one has a female assistant who absolutley hates her, the other got a witches hat from a female member of staff as a secret santa present. Often these women get on better with male staff than female staff.

I can't put my point more clearly than that - in my experience, based upon people in our firm and what other male and female members of staff think about these people, they are both ambitious control types whom noone likes, both are unmarried.

None of the above is sexist, its a true representation of my experience and I stick by it. People may take it personally while its a general point, of course not everyone is like these two women, but I would guess there are many others like them, and many others not like them.

As for Rosies point - yes it is a woman's right to choose to have children and a career, but career options can be limited if you choose part time work or cannot commit outside work hours, thats what happens unfortunately. Tell me thats not true. Then women finding career opportunites limited get frustrated and many leave. Tell me thats not true. I know loads of them.

[antijen]

Mick Mac do you just not get, or are you going to continuously keep ignoring rosies original concerns, I!m sure you are a great help to all the women you know with career problems, but cant help wondering if maybe you haven!t really heard what there saying, now why would I think that.

[LegalEagle-ish]

In my limited experience of the legal profession, the female partners I've had as bosses have been brilliant compared to the arsehole, meglomaniac male partners I've had to deal with. I don't think our limited personal experience on this is really relevant to anything, especially not a campaign against violence against women.

[Huguenot]

Moos, I don't have a 'side' - and your suggestion that I do, or that other people have allied with it, demonstrates the problem.

BN5 then responded to my suggestion that the issue isn't black and white by portraying me as someone who thinks that raping women in short skirts is okay. It goes without saying that this is an outrageous and untoward allegation and you're now right at the top of a newly created sh*tlist.

LegalEagle then suggests that nearly all of her mates have been beaten by men with hot irons.

Since we've made the assumption that it's not other women hitting these women, that nearly all men are doing it, and that anyone who says otherwise is a rapist (something women don't do) - you'll forgive me for interpreting this as an attack on men?

This is the problem with single issue action groups. It's fu*cked up by the inability to be rational or reasonable, or gain any sense of perspective or context. They specifically try to polarise debate, which satisfies the firebrands, and gives everyone an enemy.

These aren't issues specifically to do with gender (any more than the gay rights issues are), but they are to do with a society that has lost it's sense of responsibility to others. These problems are exaggerated by poverty, a lack of education, selfishness and a lack of social fulfilment.

These crimes are about tribalism, about greed, about power. They're about small-minded quick-fisted people getting an upper hand, and a cowardly society doing nothing to redress the balance.

They're not a gender issue, women are just as prone to bullying as men, and they won't be resolved by lunatics equating normal social challenges with violent rape.

If you want to solve them, then you need to recreate a broader sense of community responsibility based on contribution and mutual maintenance, then these symptoms will go away.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

The efforts of RosieH dserve the utmost respect and merit but I must say Huguenot makes many valid posts most cogently, as well.

Can't agree with this though:

"They're not a gender issue, Women are just as prone to bullying as men". In my long experience Women can be bullies and "psychologically" are more prevalent bullies but in any "physical" sense the proportion is significantly different with Males being, easily, the greatest culprits.

[dulwichdreadlocks]

The direction this thread is taking is really worrying to me.