General Election 2015

[Henry_17]

So now an economy is not healthy or balanced if it has redistributive tax policy. The irony.

None of the above demonstrates that it has not been growing, while aggregate growth and employment statistics do demonstrate that it has. Are you sure you are approaching this objectively?

[Blah Blah]

Henry, I am looking at the real data. The more people who get low paid jobs, the more we pay to subsidise those jobs. It's one reason why borrowing has gone up with new tax receipts. It's a totally false economy. Plenty of data on the government site data-wise to support that. New jobs only have value in regards to tax receipts if we aren't topping them up with benefits paid for by other tax payers.

This for detailed figures on working tax credits at 2013

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/personal-tax-credits-finalised-award-statistics-geographical-statistics-2012-to-2013

This for data on other benefits received by in work families

http://npi.org.uk/files/7513/7477/3906/WorkingFamiliesBenefits.pdf

[Henry_17]

Agreed to an extent but the goal posts have now moved from if the economy has grown or not.

Anyway, 2m net new jobs are not all low paid, but even if they were and even if them being adding was somewhat fiscally net negative (which I doubt it has been), it is a far preferable scenario to an economy that can't create jobs given the social cost that imposes. Clearly we aren't without significant social issues and a certain amount of unfairness here as we heard just earlier in the thread. But counties in Europe with stubbornly high unemployment have far greater issues. Or look at what has been happening in South Africa over the past month to use a more extreme and less relevant example.

[????]

So you are opposed to a redistribution of wealth that encourages work at the same time then?

[????]

Interesting C&P from an Independent article

The Sun may claim, just as the paper did in 1992, it was it ?wot won it? yesterday, but ultimately, just like all those years ago, it was the shy Tory voters who came out in force yesterday to deliver Cameron the Conservative majority that eluded him in 2010.

I am not one of those shy Tory voters. The threat of a Labour-SNP axis looming over the United Kingdom, placing the economic recovery in turmoil and risking disuniting our nation was enough of an impetus for me to encourage everyone I know to back the Conservatives. How could I not with 2 million more people in work, the deficit halved as a percentage of GDP, the economy growing, and real term wage increases again for workers?

For me, the choice was clear this election but if anything the campaign showed that many Tories were unprepared to espouse their ideals as loudly as a certain strand of the Left do.

So, why is there such hesitancy among Conservative voters to support this record? The simple answer is that for many, particularly students like myself, it is still seen as taboo to support the Conservative Party. F**k Tories signs dotted across university, student unions dominated by the far left - who worry more about solidarity with Peruvian revolutionaries than they do about issues for students on campus - and being called a murderer for expressing right wing opinions ? all combine to make it feel as if the Left has a monopoly on university life.

Nonetheless, nowhere is being a shy Tory more encouraged than on social media, specifically Facebook, where any movement away from the ?progressive line? is treated as treason. Tories are seen as inherently bad. Those who support fiscal sensibility are painted as devious or tricksters who have pulled the wool over an electorate made out to be naturally left wing. On an event created to ?Stop the Tory Coup? one user claimed the election was ?a fix? - and started to organise a protest against the democratic outcome.

After the election such self-righteousness continued. One Facebook user claimed that someone was simply ?wrong? when a friend posted he thought Britain had made the right decision. Another Facebook user claimed the electorate were ?simply not ready for someone who knew what they were doing? in reference to the poor showing by Miliband?s party.

READ MORE:

SCRAP THE HUMAN RIGHTS ACT AND TTIP - HERE'S WHAT YOU VOTED FOR, BRITAIN

JOHN RENTOUL: THE OTHER MILIBAND COULD HAVE WON

John Leisk, from Colchester, a seat that swung to Conservatives against polling, gave what he thought was the reason for him being a shy Tory: ? Supporters of Labour and other left wing parties are convinced they have the moral high ground and that any disagreement is inhumane, as a result any confession of Tory support is shouted down and abused.? Is it worth the effort? Not really.

If it?s not worth the effort to argue on social media, and on campuses supporting the Tories is seen as taboo, no wonder being a Tory is a secret kept close to people?s chest. At the end of the day, petitions written in capitals and idealistic statuses liked by 30 left wing friends do not win you majorities. Clear, coherent and sustainable policies do and that is why more people voted for the Conservatives than any other party yesterday.

As a friend's mum said, ?I?m very happy the country is apparently more intelligent than social media makes it seem.?

I especially like the last line...

[Blah Blah]

I accept that Henry, but saying things could be worse isn't a reason for excusing the flaws with what we have. In purely economic terms, subsidised employment is not what free markets are supposed to stand for. So for me there is a hypocracy in any party who preaches that state intervention/ ownership/ regulation is bad, when their alternative turns out to demand it. It is perhaps one of the ironies of free market economics, that the freer the market, the bigger the public sector too.

What I find most interesting about that article ???? is that it pretty much confirms what many are saying in trying to make sense of what happened. I tend also to think that (whether truthful or not) the Tories has a clear single message and stuck to it (and therefore proving that if you say something enough, people will believe it). It didn't seem to matter in the end that Cameron was bad at interviews and never answered a question, but talked and talked to deflect to something else.

I think there may have been a lot more going on than that though too. The SNP and UKIP inputs definitely had an impact on some level of consciousness (and the Tories were able to capitalise on it). And with Students, they are a generation totally removed from Thatcherism and the early years of New Labour (just as many 30-40 somethings are removed from the 70s) and it does skew perspective. Even the Tories have no idea why they did so well!

Maybe we should just accept that (in the south at least) we are a country of the individual, standing clearly to the right. I kind of sense a new era in some ways, one in which it would take a lot more to shake up our comfortable lives before we see any great swing away from the status quo again.

[Otta]

With regards that article, I am not convinced that facebook is a lefty as this guy makes out. I have several Tory friends on there and quite vocal they can be. The other day a facebook friend (friend of a friend in real life) was undecided, and I said "vote for whoever makes most sense to you, just so long as it's not UKIP". This was after several of his mates had encouraged him to vote UKIP. One of them then started sending me links to various websites designed to show Labour as "the paedo party" and stuff like that. I tried to have a sensible discussion with him about UKIP#s lack of policy, but he wasn't having it.

It's when I see stuff like that that I call people thick, and make no apology for it.

Britain First also very big on social media. It's not the lefty haven that some like to paint it out to be, it's just that these people happen to have more left than right leaning friends, so see it all on their timelines.

Don't even get me started on the abuse the wife has had because she has a very Jewish sounding last name.

[TillieTrotter]

Sounds like you know some bloody nasty people Otta, what with the above and people sneering at your potentially rocky job! Time to cull.

[DulwichFox]

Tories getting their priorities right..

One of the first thing they do..

The Tories have already put fox hunting back on the agenda http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/fox-hunting-back-agenda-reveals-5665629#ICID=sharebar_twitter ?

NHS.. Schools .. Housing.. Jobs... Can all wait.

For Fox Sake.

[Louisa]

Lol Foxy you've made my weekend with that final paragraph.

Louisa.

[Otta]

TillieTrotter Wrote:

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> Sounds like you know some bloody nasty people

> Otta, what with the above and people sneering at

> your potentially rocky job! Time to cull.

Just to clarify, earlier when I said people had said they didn't care about people losing jobs so long as they were okay, I didn't mean they'd said that directly to me. Believe me if that happened they'd be kicked to the kerb.

And the morons with the UKIP stuff were people I've never met, they're mates of a lad I've met a few times through a friend. He's basically a nice lad, but the sort who will fall for whatever he reads in the tabloid paper or what his mates tell him in the pub.

There is one lass who I went to primary school with who is a Tory supporter living in Kent who works in the NHS. She does wind me up and I should probably unfriend. Yesterday she was gloating the second Miliband and Clegg resigned, and saying "don't know what people are getting upset about, it's just like football banter". NO IT F*CKING ISN'T YOU MORON, THIS STUFF ACTUALLY MATTERS TO PEOPLE AND PEOPLE ARE LOSING THEIR JOBS!!!!".

She is a very vocal Man U supporter as well, so basically there is absolutely nothing redeeming about this woman from my perspective.

[Otta]

Basically I just think it depends on individual perspective / opinion.

I've signed way to many "sorry you're leaving" cards in the last few years for people that haven't left by choice. Kind of gets you down.

[uncleglen]

It is interesting when you find public sector workers who are Tory supporters because they are usually in a position at work where they cannot voice their opinions because your average front line NHS or education workers are so lefty it is sick. Can't people see that the left use the front line public services as a political football, withdrawing funding from the front line to create admin jobs in council service sectors etc. and thereby depriving their actual customers of service and giving 'government cutbacks' as an excuse. The hard left has infiltrated public services and the result is nothing short of disastrous for the general public.

[Blah Blah]

It's just the start Fox. And as for ?12bn welfare cuts (but no info on where the cuts will be made), the extension of right to buy to HA tenants could cost the treasury up to ?60bn! And to think that people actually fell for this!

[aquarius moon]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> Tories getting their priorities right..

>

> One of the first thing they do..

>

> The Tories have already put fox hunting back on

> the agenda

> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/fox-hunting-b

> ack-agenda-reveals-5665629#ICID=sharebar_twitter

> ?

>

> NHS.. Schools .. Housing.. Jobs... Can all wait.

>

>

> For Fox Sake.

Foxy,

I gave up worrying about myself long ago because this government doesn't give a sh*t about me.

They don't give a sh*t about foxes either but the League Against Cruel Sports are not going to give up without a fight.

Have faith in them.

[Otta]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> the left use the front

> line public services as a political football,

> withdrawing funding from the front line to create

> admin jobs in council service sectors etc. and

> thereby depriving their actual customers of

> service

Sorry but that is just utter utter bullshit.

I think you're a teacher if memory serves, so you know a bit about teachers and schools. But you clearly know very little about how local authorities / health work.

[Blah Blah]

You do talk such nonsense sometimes uncleglen. The NHS is primarily front lined by health professionals who want to do no more than deliver high quality healthcare. If you really think that's how the public sector works and that those of us who work in it are part of a left wing agenda to deliver poor services then you really are stupid.

As someone who actually does work in public sector healthcare, I can assure you that we despair of anything that affects our ability to deliver the highest quality of patient care when and where it is needed. In my area, central government cuts are the reason why long term care is impossible to deliver, when that is the only thing that will really help a patient. It's not a left wing conpsiracy to fight for better services and the required funds to deliver them, it's compassionate common sense by people who simply want to do a job that most would consider to be fairly important.

And if an NHS is a left wing idea, then we are all guilty of left leanings. I'm sure even you uncleglen would be horrified is a healthcare system free at delivery was removed, or didn't exist - because in countries where it doesn't exist, people die or live with conditions that could be easily treated.

[DulwichFox]

Well it explains why the Tories had more success in Rural areas and less so in Urban areas..

The Country Alliance would have been casting there Tory votes to bring back hunting as the most

urgent thing on the agenda.

Feel really sorry for all the 'Poor' Farmers and land owners constantly whinging about this, that and the other.

They really have no idea about poverty, homelessness, hunger, desperation. Why would they.

Must stop now before I get too depressed.

Foxy

[uncleglen]

No they don't Blah Blah many get on a plane and come to the UK where they are a drain on the NHS. The availability of interpreters provided is ludicrous, and a drain on the NHS. FYI I have worked in the NHS as well so I have seen the wastage...and I knew people in the council when Mrs T was in power and the levels of corruption was indefensible. The tax-payers' pocket is not a bottomless pit and until the lefties realise this and get a grip then these services will always be used as a political football...Ed Miliband thought he would win on his NHS ticket but truth is he privatised and outsourced much more than Cameron ever did

[????]

red devil Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ???? Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I am rather enjoying the angst and hatred of

> the

> > metropolitan middle classes all over social

> media,

> > it's enough to make you vote Tory.

>

> What would the young ???? have thought of the

> older ?????...

At 3am in the morning of the 1983 election I was pissed and stoned out of my head playing Heaven 17s "We don't need this Fascist Grove Thing" out of the windows at top volume in my girlfriends flat in Ladbroke Grove as the Tories had just romped home and there was a celebratory party going on opposite....back then, I'd have been surprised that a 50+ ???? would be glad that Labour didn't get in 2015, but I am pretty sure I'd be thinking that it would be pretty foooking sad for a 50+ ???? to be doing metaphorically speaking the same thing as in 1983 in the face of a Tory victory, which is, more or less, what many 50, 40, and 30+ year olds are doing. Plus of course all the permanently adolescent lefty luvvies. I find it a bit sad, quite false and pretty juvenile as a 50+ year old, glad i was doing it at 20 but now, Fooking grow up. Vote who you want to, look at the facts, fight for change, join the greens/Labour whoever, but posting 'right on messages/propganda' on Social Media Fooking meaningless crap...unless you are 20ish obviously. The tories aren't baby eaters (all of them anyway) and their voters aren't all self centred millionaires or dupes of the right wing press.

[Otta]

???? Wrote:

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> their voters aren't all self centred millionaires or dupes of the right wing press.

Not all, no.

[Blah Blah]

I can only speak of the NHS uncle because that's where my experience lies but you ARE wrong. Health tourism is a cost yes but that's not what you were talking about. You were inferring that we in the NHS are a bunch of left wing conspiracists with an agenda to wreck services.

Ed Miliband didn't privatise anything btw, as he was never in government as prime minister. I think you are referring to the chnages under the Blair government and yes I agree, along with huge investment in the NHS after 16 years of starvation by Mrs Ts government (investment btw that cut waiting times and increased doctors and nurses and front line staff), came the 'accountancy' culture. It was an attempt I think to make the financing of the NHS more business like (in partnership with the private sector) and we all know of the problems, but that is a far cry from what the Cameron government are planning to do. They will complete the process to fully privatise services by stealth if they can. Waiting times and lists have already increased under the coalition. There is a shortage of GPs. On the ground, it's clear to me who cares more about front lines services (whatever the cost and difficulties of delivering them are).

[Blah Blah]

Spot on ????. The are plenty of backbenchers who are hard working MPs, for local issues, the same issues many boroughs face with housing, health, schools etc. And there's no need to presume they'll all tow a party whip either.

[Jessie]

Loving the work of Otta and Blah Blah. Hope my son doesn't end up being taught by Uncleglen.

Joined the Labour Party today.

[aquarius moon]

I'm so sick of reading all this sh*t on here, just rubbing salt in the wound.

What does it matter anyway?

Knowing why it happened, what we should've done to stop it happening, what we should do next time........It's too late!

So why even argue about who should have won? I could do that all night but what difference does mine or anyone elses opinion make now?

All I will say is that those who voted Tory because their lives will be enriched by them - Congratulations. So pleased for you (but do think of others).

And those that voted elsewhere because their lives are bound to get worse.............Really hope you keep your jobs, life eventually gets better and you survive x