'ED General issues' makes me wanna weep

[Louisa]

Reading through some of the topics and comments on ED General Issues makes me realise just how suddenly and dramatically the face of East Dulwich (and London) has changed (and is continuing to do so), beyond all recognition.

I can't necessarily pin down all of the specific changes I talk of, some of them are unwritten experiences. I really do miss the days of variety, excitement, fire in the belly. All the things that made our great city thrive for generations. It's all just gone, overnight and not even with a big fanfare, just like someone blowing out a candle. We've had the debates many times about the 'G' word, the fact that London is a city in a state of constant change etc. but I genuinely believe this is something bigger, maybe caused by globalisation and the crazy property market.

The London I spent my youth in was a dynamic, vibrant place. Wealth and poverty to the extreme, siting cheek by jowl. All underpinned by a sense of a whole host of small village like communities, often going back generations siting side by side. Street markets with loud voices and barrow boys, significant groups of different people from all over the world. All of these characters black and white old and young mingling down the pub, not always getting along either, but that was part of the character and face of the city.

It really has all just been replaced by a very samey, mostly white outsider, homogeneous culture. Not necessarily alien to the city, because I'm sure this city has experienced and housed every culture there has been at some point in its long life. But it's a culture which has taken over and replaced all others, almost becoming the homogenised 'norm', a replacement of everything that was fun and vibrant. I am trying not to be rose tinted about this, but I genuinely feel London has lost its soul. It's really sad. What does everyone think?

Louisa.

[keekybreeks]

whitstable is a calling

[numbers]

Was it the 'Organic, Sustainable, Convenient, Family Shopping in East Dulwich' thread that sent you over the edge Louisa?

[MrBen]

Louisa,

Is it possible that you've posted about this topic before? Possibly about 20 odd threads on the subject? What's the fresh perspective not covered in those many hundred posts and discussions that you're going to give us this time round?

Even old time semi fans of yours like me are yawning...

[ed_pete]

".. dynamic, vibrant place..", "..small village like communities..." - sounds like it could have been written by an Peckham estate agent.

[uncleglen]

They all have to get along now and be pleasant to each other or be accused of some breach of equality law or hate crime......

The dynamism and vibrant behaviour is more often than not fuelled by alcohol or recreational drugs......

Whoever labelled London 'Londonistan' hit the nail on the head and there has been polarisation ever since

[red devil]

MrBen Wrote:

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> What's the fresh perspective not covered

> in those many hundred posts and discussions that

> you're going to give us this time round?

urban left wing intelligensia...obvs!

[Otta]

Well for what it's worth I think Louisa is spot on. This isn't her talking about East Dulwich, this is London and if you show her thread to any long standing Soho resident I think they'd say it's bang on.

[Otta]

And uncleglen, in the past I've assumed you were partaking in a spot of trolling/flaming, but you really are a deeply unpleasant cunt.

[DulwichFox]

I understand fully what Louisa is saying and agree with her..

Having said that, I can remember my mum and grandparents talking about their 'Good Old' days.

When they lived in a condemned house with only gas light, an outside toilet, 1 cold tap, coal fires.

I lived in that house for the first 18 months of my life. I did not die of the cold and damp.

Most of the people in Peckham were in the same boat. We had no television, no phone, no hot water, no fridge.

People were content. People looked after each other. There really was a sense of community.

You suppose we simply cannot expect people of a certain age to understand that sense of community.

As I grew up in Peckham living at home, the community was the one of my parents.

When I moved out and came to Dulwich in 1980 I found my community.

The same community no doubt Louisa is talking about.

dynamic, vibrant place. Wealth and poverty to the extreme, siting cheek by jowl.

All underpinned by a sense of a whole host of small village like communities, often going back generations

siting side by side

but the life has been sucked out of the place..

Ok we have more restaurants, shops, the 'Market' but the market does not represent E.D. as do the markets

in France, Belgium and other markets around the world that have existed in some cases for 100's of years.

The only community would seem to be The EDF. where most people do not know each other.

For some this virtual world is their life line.

In many cases all people seem to want to do is impress others about where they can afford to eat and drink.

There are a few exceptions. The Curry Club is a good example, but even the Curry Club (open to anyone)

members seldom meet up outside curry nights although do tend to bump into each other from time to time.

Also there are many many more people who live in E.D. that do not use The EDF.

The EDF is not the end all of opinion on our area and talking to people outside of The EDF they all have

their own opinions of the area.

The whole subject of The East Dulwich Community could fill a book.

'Where did our Community Go? '

DulwichFox

[steveo]

It went with the bad sanitation, infant mortality and rickets

[Earl Aelfheah]

I don't agree. Re. ED - I have never lived in a friendlier place. I know most of my neighbours, the kids on our street play together. If I walk around east dulwich I often bump into people I know, even if just tangentially. There is this forum too. To say that the place has no sense of community is nonsense.

It is true that East Dulwich is not the most exciting part of London, it is more of a family / suburban area. But there are still plenty of places in London which are exciting, hectic, vibrant.

Soho has changed, of course, but then look to East London, which has taken over as the centre of nightlife in London - it's just change. The Capital still has plenty of life in it.

That said, there are some things which concern me. We have a major problem with housing of course and the ongoing privatisation of the public realm. I don't like the big, souless, sanitised developments going on in 'regeneration' areas like Nine Elms, Elephant etc.

But really, no need to write London off yet.

[Otta]

Not writing it off, but as you say, the energy has moved out to East London. How long before it moves out of London all together because the people that make it happen just can't afford to live here?

I don't want to be a doom monger, but development is tearing down anything slightly shabby, and slightly shabby places tend to be where the interesting stuff happens.

[Otta]

What's the live music scene in Camden like these days? And I don't mean the round house, I mean all the pubs, are they still banging?

[Jah Lush]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

I can remember my mum and grandparents talking about their 'Good Old' days.

> When they lived in a condemned house with only

> gas light, an outside toilet, 1 cold tap, coal

> fires.

> I lived in that house for the first 18 months of

> my life. I did not die of the cold and damp.

>

> Most of the people in Peckham were in the same

> boat. We had no television, no phone, no hot

> water, no fridge.

Sorry, had to be done.

 

[steveo]

It's not just London

http://www.spectator.co.uk/spectator-life/spectator-life-life/9477362/how-the-big-apple-lost-its-bite/

[Jeremy]

Otta Wrote:

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> What's the live music scene in Camden like these days?

Think it's pretty much down to Dublin Castle and The Enterprise for pub bands. Then Barfly and Underworld for smaller touring bands.

[Earl Aelfheah]

steveo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's not just London

>

> http://www.spectator.co.uk/spectator-life/spectato

> r-life-life/9477362/how-the-big-apple-lost-its-bit

> e/

I can't help wondering if this isn't just old people saying 'it's not as good as it was in my day'. Scenes move on, fashions and areas change. I'm sure if you're a young thing living in New York, it's just as full of danger, wonder and excitement as that journo remembers it being 'back in the day', although the 'hip' places won't be the same ones he visited, nor the neighbourhoods.

[steveo]

I think their point is that young people can no longer afford to live in Manhattan or London, however the youth will always find a way - sofa surfing, sleeping on floors, finding a girlfriend with a flat. A mate of mine used to live under a kitchen table.

Thirty odd years ago about ten of us lived in a three bed flat in ED. That was pretty sleazy

[Earl Aelfheah]

The cost of housing / living in these cities is a problem, I agree. But, the youth will find creative ways round things... ways of reclaiming the city.

[Louisa]

As Otta pointed out with Soho, the examples you can use are much bigger than just some old timer like me being reminiscent about a by-gone era. Brixton, Peckham, Hackney the list goes on, we aren't even refering to one place! It has to be fuelled by a game changer, a shift, and I reckon that's the property prices and commercial rents. I know we find humour in the whole "it's not like it was in my day when we all had an outside toilet and mice running around" etc but it's a cultural shift that I had not seen in my lifetime until the last decade or so. Other great cities like Manchester, Leeds, and Birmingham have not taken the punch quite so dramatically as London. Speak to anyone outside of London and they recognise this shift too. Creativity and variety are what made London so special as it spread its wings in the 19th century out into suburbia. We all laugh at zone 9 Bromley, Croydon, Enfield, Wembley but they've to a degree kept some of these pioneering characteristics as they are the remote pieces of the puzzle yet to be touched. Having a place a bit scruffy, down at heel, cheap to live they're all the ingredients for attracting the creatives, immigrants etc once we have whole areas where only one type of person lives and works, goes to a safe gastro pub where no one speaks to anyone outside their group, it just gets boring.

Louisa.

[DulwichFox]

I don't care about what's happening in Camdem. I don't care what's happening in East London.

I'm talking about and I think Louisa is talking about OUR Local community. There isn't one.

Even couples in the pubs do not talk to each other. They just sit there on there mobiles or ipods.

Wi-Fi has killed conversation.

The Virtual Community. The internet and isolation.

'Can you keep quiet please. It's Quiz night and we can't hear the questions if you keep talking..'

DulwichFox

[Earl Aelfheah]

London is probably the most diverse city in the world - I recognise the issue with cost of living, rents etc, but come on, places like Hackney, Dalston and Peckham are pretty vibrant today. And I'm sure there are plenty of cool little scenes in parts of London I (quite rightly) know nothing about - I'm too old. It would be kind of sad if kids were still hanging out in the same places their parents did, no?

[Earl Aelfheah]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't care about what's happening in Camdem. I

> don't care what's happening in East London.

>

> I'm talking about and I think Louisa is talking

> about OUR Local community. There isn't one.

>

> Even couples in the pubs do not talk to each

> other. They just sit there on there mobiles or

> ipods.

> Wi-Fi has killed conversation.

>

> The Virtual Community. The internet and

> isolation.

>

> 'Can you keep quiet please. It's Quiz night and

> we can't hear the questions if you keep

> talking..'

>

> DulwichFox

This is not my lived experience of the area.

[Pickle]

I lived in E14 for a while, many years ago. My flat was on a floor with 4 other front doors opening off it. In 2 years I never once met, or even saw, any of my neighbours. It was horrible.

The move to SE22 12 or 13 years ago was the complete opposite. We knew all of our neighbours in the first place we lived in, and the same applies where we are now. It probably helps to have school aged kids, as there's a very strong community feel associated with schools, and pretty much every house we walk past in the mornings have kids at the same school as ours.

We wandered down to the market on Saturday, haven't been for ages, and constantly ran into people we knew that were happy to stop for a chat. Stall holders too, are long established in the area, which is nice.

Disagree with DulwichFox's observation about the pubs - admittedly I don't go out at night all that often, but I was out on Friday and the atmosphere was brilliant. At Pretty's, where we had dinner, everyone was chatting to everyone. Same at the pub we popped in to afterwards.

Anyway, as far as London goes, I think we've got it pretty good in East Dulwich (and surrounds).