Will you / Should we vote on Thursday?

[espelli]

Thank you Ted, is there anyone who is trustworthy?! The Jury Team site says:

The Jury Team is a political movement created with the goal of making politics more accessible, politicians more accountable and political institutions more transparent.

clearly Sir Judge himself is not as transparent as the website claims.

Louisiana they are great websites thank you for posting them.

[antijen]

Got leaflets through door about Haroon Saad, independant, just having a look.

http://www.wecaneurope.org/

[bigbadwolf]

Just a quick question and I'm being serious here. Do any of you actually think of yourselves as an E.U citizen outside of all the attention the election has brought to our doorstep? I'm thinking when asked would you say "I'm a citizen of the U.k and the European union" or just "I'm British but I still want to exercise my right within E.U law".

[Marmora Man]

I see myself as British which is how I describe myself on formal documents (NOT English - thats too parochial). I am of Europe but not "in" Europe. I do not see the need for ever closer political and organisational links that seem to set us on the way to a superstate / United States of Europe. I much prefer the earlier version of a free trade economic group to the current political entity.

I do want a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.

I vote in these elections because:

a. I have a democratic duty / desire to do so

b. I hope, by using my vote appropriately, to lend support to those Euro politicians that wish to curb, and ideally reverse, the growth of the EU.

[taper]

The EP is not a powerful body so, unless you want to register a domestic political message in these febrile times, there's no compelling reason to vote.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Idiot question - is this a nationwide poll? Only I haven't received a voting card.

[bigbadwolf]

Taper, I'm no political expert and don't pretend to be but I do, this may come as a shock, like to keep abreast of current affairs. I agree that the E.U isn't a powerful body, more like a regional League of nations. It is however a powerful Brand in the sense that when needed can be hauled out when a powerful country has a dispute with a smaller/weaker nation within the treaty of Maastricht and the other way round in that a small country i.e Belgium has a dispute with France that Germany also share's , in that it supports Belgium. This is a subtle message from a smaller nation saying o.k you're bigger more influential in the grand scheme of things but if you push it my big friend is going to start making waves that may not go in your favor, if you see what I mean. It's basically a good tool for equality although it can be manipulated.

[Marmora Man]

BBW - to describe the EU as "not a powerful body" is to misunderstand it. The EU operates on several levels - some where no action can be taken unless every participating government agrees, others where supranational bodies can make decisions and pass binding resolutions that affect every member state. At present there is, some, balance between the intergovermental level and the supranational level - but there is a desire to make more and more (see the Lisbon Treaty) supranational and remove individual government's rights to veto or oppose legislation.

It is said (but I cannot immediately find a reference to verify) that over 75% of British legislation originates from the EU. Decisions made in Brussels by the EU Executive affect everybody living in the EU community and many of those decisions are not assessed, analysed, debated or properly considered before becoming binding on member states.

The European Government is pretty powerless - it is meant to hold the EU executive to account but does a poor job.

A return to the European Economic Community or the Treaty of Rome that established it would be a "good thing".

[bigbadwolf]

I suppose MM that I'm drawing too immediate comparison to the U.N and N.A.T.O so in retrospect I can see why you think I'm misunderstanding it's power. You're right as it does have a direct influence some might also say disruptive say in member states decisions on passing new laws as well as making amendments.

I feel I've cheated you of the debate that you're after as although I do have an opinion I suppose I'm using this discussion as a platform to prove to others I'm not always the yob I'm made out to be although I do often have myself to blame.

I agree (I also never knew we'd left) that the E.C.C would be a good thing for our economy, although I'm I'm not qualified to speak about such a move in the current climate but I'd be interested to know why we did leave.

I'll have to look up the treaty of Rome (birth of the first economic agreement post war?) so watch this space. Nice talking to you MM, I think that's the most thought I've put into a post to date.

[Drxyster]

I agree with Marmora Man, I voted to becoming part of the "EEC" the "European ECONOMIC Community", the treaty of Rome as was I believe.I did not, nor was I, or other UK citezens allowed to vote on becoming part of the EU,where laws rules and statutes are applied to UK citizens with no choice as to whether we like or agree with them.My wife and I will most certainly be voting on Thursday, while we still have the opportunity to do so.

[dukesdenver]

Marmora Man Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It is said (but I cannot immediately find a

> reference to verify) that over 75% of British

> legislation originates from the EU.

'A frequently asked question concerns the amount of UK legislation arising from EC

legislation. It is impossible to answer this question accurately for a number of reasons. UK

laws implemented as a result of EC legislation might have been brought into UK law anyway

and existing UK laws might adequately implement all or parts of an EC law.'

Source: Parliament factsheet

[????]

I think I am gonna vote Green or spoiled.....I'm a big sceptic on the EC, but a bigger one on UKIP....in all reality, I probably won't bother.....

[EdieF]

Yes I totally agree with you! The Suffragettes fought so hard for our right to vote, it would be nothing less than sad (ungrateful, even, or disloyal to our sex) for us to be apathetic! Mind you, 'working men' weren't too far behind in the right to vote. I think it's important to exercise your democratic right to vote, whoever you vote for, because there are too many countries in the world where people don't have a vote.

[louisiana]

Spoiled ballots are counted, but the figure doesn't generally appear anywhere of any consequence other than the piece of paper with the declaration of votes cast, so such a gesture won't really be noticed. Better to vote for somebody.

[taper]

marmora man, bigbad - I said the EP isn't a powerful body, by which I meant the Parliament. The EU is indeed very powerful, but that power resides in the Council and Commission. The elections are for the largely powerless Parliament.

[red devil]

Quids, you can vote Green on my behalf (I'm out of the country next Thurs), that way you get to vote but don't vote, if you know what I mean?...anyway, what chance have you got against a tie and a crest?

[Marmora Man]

DukesD - thanks for the reference. One should believe the House of Commons library but the content seems to have been selected and compiled carefully to present the rosiest of pictures. The figure of 9% seems counter intuitive. I'll do a little more research.

[SteveT]

I shall vote for a 'clean hands' politician, and will probably be a newby if 'clean hands' is a pre-requisite.

[bigbadwolf]

Or born yesterday.

[beef]

http://no2eu.com/

I would paste links to the other party's sites for the sake of impartiality, but this is the only one one needs to visit.

[Marmora Man]

beef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> http://no2eu.com/

>

> I would paste links to the other party's sites for

> the sake of impartiality, but this is the only one

> one needs to visit.

This party is just Socialist Worker dross dressed up under a fancy name to win some EU funding and expenses.

Any party that includes Bob Crow as a candidate clearly has problems - he is an unreconstructed left wing militant who believes that ever higher pay and better conditions for his, already pampered staff, are more important than providing a service to the paying public.

Tube Strike

[pitflaps]

If you're of the political persuasion but think UKIP are unsullied by the expenses shenangans and therefore have earned your vote doubly so would do well to read this:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article1434608.ece

or possibly this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/24/mps-expenses-ukip-nigel-farage

I am disgusted...no...actually, I find it a bit hard to be disgusted about MP's expenses simply because I know how most people - including me - view my own expenses. Fiddle-dee-dee-dee-dum - every time I used to go to the US for example, I'd hammer the fact you never got written evidence of tips and basically spent it on myself - sorry, but true; and that was pretty tame based on what most people were up to and all the companies I've been to. I was middle income for those offices and it didn't matter what salary you were on, as far as I could tell everyone fiddled. I apologise if people are offended by that or don't have that experience but it seems unlikely mine is especially parochial to myself. (And I'm not excusing it either, I'm just saying I'd be in a pretty big glass house if I started to voice anger at MPs).

It would be nice to assume if I was an elected MP I would go against what I could have claimed and instead taken the moral high ground, refused to claim what I felt was going over the top and done the right thing especially as it's public money. But I doubt I would have done, especially if the culture was to encourage people to claim as much and often as possible; it takes guts to a) take a pay cut when your colleagues are effectively getting thousands in bonuses, b) blow the trumpet about the system. It's been going since the 80s and - as far as I know - no MP blew the whistle on it. Not one. Not a sausage. Does that tell you something about MPs or about people in general? Discuss.

Also, I could be wrong here but I read something about the fact that there's only 94 MPs that have been fingered for real abuse...out of 650? Please feel free to correct but that seem astonishingly low if you ask me - bearing in mind they could all have been getting up to the same level of (moral) abuse without breaking the de jure rules

And finally: of course you should vote, no brainer. If you're still in doubt find somebody who fought in WW2 and ask them. There, that was easy wasn't it?

[Brendan]

Just because everyone is dishonest doesn't make it ok, it just makes it worse

[????]

Plus the millions of people who work in jobs where they don't get expense accounts...however amazing that will be to the whitecollar masses of SE22....

[????]

..please note I avoided bourgeios and middleclass in that post ;-)