Will you / Should we vote on Thursday?

[pitflaps]

I wasn't saying it makes it okay, I really just meant that the outrage seems to be as much about surprise when it doesn't seem all that surprising given how long the rules and subsequent culture has been allowed to develop: institutional corruption is usually more insidious because it gathers a sort of independent momentum of its own that's hard to tackle individually, (and the scale and length of time is undoubtedly what this suggests).

I also wanted to point out, a) most people (seem to) have a pretty high regard for their own morals when they've never been confronted with that sort of temptation, (one person I know for example was mouthing off about how awful it was until I reminded him about how he used to use all my used bus/taxi receipts when he was doing his tax returns each year. He was poor at the time but he was also fiddling the system - plus it was public money, b) (as a corollary) the ubiquity of guilt seems more a condemnation of people rather than MP's per se - unless you happen to think they're a really, really weird group of people, (actually, I've met a couple of politicians so even I'm not sure I agree with that statement).

Believe it or not, if you've ever nicked post-it notes, toilet rolls, pens, rulers, calculators, cuddly toys, read the newspaper on the lav at work, phoned in sick when you really had a hangover, taken 3 hours for lunch or spent several hours posting on internet blogs when you should be working...you're stealing - in one way or another. It is also an (accepted) system of behaviour in most places of work. You can argue about the scale but it doesn't make it not true.

Anyway, still vote on Thursday please - the principle should always rule over the candidates, however depressing that may sometimes seem.

[EDOldie]

How do we protest by voting? For the first time ever in my voting life I will not cast a vote as I feel doing so endorses and supports this corrupt govt. and opposition. If virtually nobody votes it will send the strongest possible signal to the politicians.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Not sure that helps EDOldie. A number of inferences could be made from a low turnout. Surely it is better to deliberately spoil your ballot paper?

Still don't have my voting card.

[louisiana]

EDOldie Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> How do we protest by voting? For the first time

> ever in my voting life I will not cast a vote as I

> feel doing so endorses and supports this corrupt

> govt. and opposition. If virtually nobody votes it

> will send the strongest possible signal to the

> politicians.

Unfortunately it is my experience that politicians invariably interpret low turnouts as the product of laziness or busyness of the voter, inconvenience of voting in person at a polling station bla bla. Never, ever, to disillusionment with the system or parties. I've had this discussion so many times with both politicians and the various Departments of State (four?) that have been responsible for voting over recent years, but they just don't get it, their view often being, 'If we make statutory voting like Big Brother voting, we'll get really high turnouts'. Their answer to low turnouts is stuff like giving the vote to 16 year-olds, or putting voting machines at the checkout in Sainsbury's.

This is also the reason behind their long-standing refusal to implement individual voter registration; they feared voter registration would fall through the floor as a consequence, owing to all those 'inconvenience factors'.

[Marmora Man]

Coupe of points:

1. Isn't voting compulsory in Australia?

2. I'm very strongly against lowering the voting age to 16 - if anything I'd prefer to raise the voting age to 25, make it compulsory to vote (but include a "none of the above" category) and insist that MPs cannot stand for election until the age of 30 and a job "outside" of politics (so no more University Union - House of Commons researcher - think tank wonk - MP route into politics)

[charliecharlie]

[quote=This site is pretty handy:

http://www.votematch.co.uk/europe/]

thanks for this lousiana... tried it and was one point different on suiting green, lib dem or labour as my MEP option... which was exactly my predicament prior to doing the test (so none the wiser)

either it's pretty accurate or I'm pretty unclear on who to vote for...

and yes... of course I will vote

don't vote, don't complain!!!

[EDOldie]

I don't think that at the moment anyone will confuse a low turnout with apathy or laziness. I also think that an abnormally low turnout will devalue the vote that the minority parties might/probably will attract. Wouldn't it be great if it were accepted that the vote was effectively null and void because the electorate doesn't want to pay for Mr Darlings accountant and all the other nonsense that has come up. Mind you if he got some good financial advice we might not be in this mess.

In a way it's all very sad because the vote ought to be about Europe and local councils and our representation in both. But we, the public, could hijack it and we have a chance to show how dissatisfied we are with govt. and this antiquated voting system and all that entails in terms of representation.

Fuming EDOldie

[louisiana]

Fuming EDOldie, have you considered using the Pledgebank website to encourage others to do the same? (I was involved with a pledge that got over 1,000 signatories, who mostly delivered on their pledge.)

[EDOldie]

Hmmm, louisiana, thats an interesting site. Not quite sure what to make of it. You young people, eh?

[louisiana]

Well it's probably too late for your purposes this week, but just to say that we used the site to start an NGO with over 1,000 paying supporters. It took several months but...

These kinds of sites can be useful in bringing together like-thinking people to actually do stuff.

[steveo]

But how will we ever get the MEP's expenses under the microscope?

[louisiana]

Your point is a good one, steveo.

Consider

- contacting Heather Brooke, who raised the whole MP's expenses thing in the first place (via FOI).

- contacting Tom Steinberg at MySociety, who build all kinds of really good websites that inform the public about what politicians are up to.

Note: Heather Brooke will be speaking at geek conference OpenTech next month (4 July, ULU). It's only five quid for the day to cover costs, so do come along if you are interested. (You also get Bill & Ben: Bill Thompson, and Ben Goldacre.)

Transparency is everything: does your European candidate support transparency?

[Izodia]

I've received my polling card but my other half hasn't. I know he's registered to vote at our address. He is French but I'm sure he's entitled to vote for this. Should he just head to the polling station with me?

[louisiana]

I haven't had a polling card either Izodia.

[Izodia]

Hmmm...I guess if he heads down there with some ID he should be fine then.

[PinkyB]

Just bumping this up so it's near the top for tomorrow morning. Basically... YES YOU SHOULD!

[louisiana]

Vote for

And for those of you who believe in the

...

Edited to insert missing word.

[bawdy-nan]

Please go and vote. I cannot see how not voting will help. The thing I hate most about this whole business is the sinking feeling we're dancing into a more hideous future where we're ruled by celebrities and / or the independently wealthy.

[steveo]

Spot on Bawdy-nan. I watched that slimy, policy free, shyster Cameron performing on TV at the weekend urging a Gen. Election. He is up to his neck in expenses claims while Gordon is relatively clean yet he might well do it. They'll all vote themselves a wage rise, kick the scandals into the long grass and that will be that.

If we're nor careful this is all going seriously tits up.

MEP's expenses should be out there now.

Perhaps the forum should have its own MEP. let's have a whip round.

[Keef]

I shall definitely be voting, so as to keep the undesirables out, including the tories of course.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Slightly perturbed that when I explained I didn't have a polling card, I just had to supply my address. Even though I proffered ID they didn't want to see it.

[louisiana]

Yes, PGC, there is no need in law for any ID.

There is no need - in law - for you to register as an individual voter. Someone on your household, if you have one, can register you (without your knowledge) and they can also register you for a postal vote (and presumably use that vote), which would prevent you from voting in person. By law.

Indeed, I can send a fax to Southwark claiming I'm a resident (without any geographic proof - just a fax number) and register myself (and others that I register as voters) as postal voters. I've done it.

There is a need to overhaul all this. Labour are terrified that if they have individual voter registration there will be massive drop-out, while local councils say (when you speak to their RO's) that they have no money to implement proper checks on people claiming voting rights and elections are the Cinderella of local government.

And then we spend billions on whatever (was in Iraq, monogrammed drain covers).

Go figure.

I feel the urge to dedicate the next year to massive campaigning around this.

[PinkyB]

Tht's actually really useful to hear because I moved house in April and can't find my voting card. So basically I can just turn up without any proof of who I am and they'll let me do my democratic duty? Presumably I could also have voted on behalf of a lazy flatmate of the same sex who I knew wasn't going to bother?

[louisiana]

PinkyB Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Tht's actually really useful to hear because I

> moved house in April and can't find my voting

> card. So basically I can just turn up without any

> proof of who I am and they'll let me do my

> democratic duty?

As long as it is the correct polling station. You can still only cast your vote at the designated polling station for your registered residence.

Presumably I could also have

> voted on behalf of a lazy flatmate of the same sex

> who I knew wasn't going to bother?

As long as they didn't recognise you as not being that person. There is a legal right of anybody at the polling station to challenge (whether poll worker or voter who happens to be there at the time), but that would all be down to happenstance (and any such challenge scenario would disappear under repeated government proposals on remote voting).

[PinkyB]

Cheers Louisiana, I shall jump on the P4 tonight and give it a go! (just for me though, might be chancing my arm a bit to ask if I can vote for my flatmate at the same time)