Water torture

[Huguenot]

I've never come across any evidence of the death sentence as an effective deterrent.

I remember watching a lorry load of forty something men in orange jumpsuits in Chongqing, China laughing and cheering as they zipped along in an army convoy. It transpired that they were off to be executed.

I was naturally surprised by their good humour, but my local colleague explained that most of them would have been convicted of pickpocketing western tourists, and the night before would have been the best night of their life as they dined out on the the thirty-odd quid in the stolen wallets.

Since they'd had such a great night out, they no longer had anything to aspire to. They were fulfilled.

It's worth noting the ten happiest societies:

1. Denmark

2. Switzerland

3. Austria

4. Iceland

5. The Bahamas

6. Finland

7. Sweden

8. Bhutan

9. Brunei

10. Canada

It doesn't coincide with the top 5 countries for executions:

1. China

2. Iran

3. Saudi Arabia

4. Pakistan

5. USA

Those five countries accounted for 93% of the world's executions.

I think the best argument against capital punishment or torture is an entirely selfish one. Perpetrating these acts against someone else poisons our own existence.

I'm sure they satisfy some sort of primal rapacious instinct, but we rein in our other instinctive destructive traits in favour of a better society, so I don't see why we shouldn't continue to do that with this issue too.

I can't believe that JTT is being entirely serious. We're surely not recommending that we allow the police to torture 'suspects'?

JTT does demonstrate how vulnerable liberal societies are to fear. The Stasi and the death camps aren't far behind a nod and a wink to the coppers. Tragic.

[Huguenot]

*Bob*... 'growing bamboo up the anal passage'????

How the f*ck do you think up these things? You're a sick sick man. Seriously, I could never have thought of that one. Ever.

:))

[????]

Er, aren't we now debating something different? Punishment is one thing but everyone and I mean EVERYONE has a right to a presumption of innocent until proved guilty and fair trail with legally gained evidence...torture doesn't fit in any of this EVER. Now punishment that's a whole different argument

[Moos]

I'm afraid *Bob* didn't invent the bamboo torture, although it may be apocryphal.

And bringing the Bahamas into it just isn't fair. How can we compete with that weather and those beaches?

Seriously though, the Bahamas is a really odd place with high levels of violent crime due to drug problems, and a really big affluence gap. It's completely normal to have bars on all your windows. The richest people are extraordinarily rich and usually white, and often not nationals, and live in gated communities. The poorest people are very poor and usually black and live in shacks. It amazes me that it made the top 10.

[jimmy two times]

Funnily enough we're not in that top ten.

[Jeremy]

...but we could be if we introduced some good old-fashioned torture?!

[Huguenot]

Singapore has the death sentence, and very little crime.

But it's fair to say that the two things aren't related. The low crime is a reflection of the cultural sense of responsibility that residents have to their society. There's a huge social pressure on people to contribute the family unit, the kampong and the country.

I think the drugs issue is a reflection of a breakdown in that perception on both sides. Taking recreational drugs that you have access to - in spite of the lives that a ruined on the other side of the globe as a consequence - is outrageous. It's just not funny. Users are criminals in more than just a legal sense.

But to 'torture' the suspects compounds the issue - it does more damage to our society and breaks the ties that bind us together. So this 'obvious' solution achieves exactly the opposite.

[jimmy two times]

Let's be clear, I am referring to the death penalty for murder. Torture will be adequate for drug dealers.

[*Bob*]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

Taking

> recreational drugs that you have access to - in

> spite of the lives that a ruined on the other side

> of the globe as a consequence - is outrageous.

> It's just not funny. Users are criminals in more

> than just a legal sense.

Of course the same goes for food we eat, clothes we wear, where we go on holiday, our household furnishings and now - the money we borrow.

People are selfish in so many ways but always blind to their own selfishness.

In any case - as you well know, Huge, there's a swathe of recreational drugs which don't 'blight the other side of the globe', from things you can grow on your windowsill in a plant pot, to things you can buy on the internet, made legally in a factory - like shampoo. Essentially the greater the attempt to control, the greater the global blight.

[Ted Max]

Translation: I like drugs. (and shampoo)

[*Bob*]

I like some more than others, and some I don't care for at all.

Just like, say, types of cheese.

Which ones do you like, Ted?

[Ted Max]

I like good cheese, but avoid bad cheese.

[Brendan]

Now that you mention it I have a steady supply of mushrooms that pop up in one of the pots outside. Could a type of grow your own, self sufficiency wrestle the power away from gangs, dealers and smuggler and bring peace to our streets?

[*Bob*]

In short, Brendan, yes.

[jumpinjackflash]

legalbeagle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> jimmy two times Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Why has this place gone to the dogs Sean?

> Because

> > some of us have views that are not as liberal

> as

> > yours ? Well I'll admit, I hate drug dealers. I

> > also hate Paedos. And I hate people who commit

> > random acts of violence for absolutely no

> reason

> > at all. And quite frankly I would not lose a

> wink

> > of sleep to know that these people were getting

> > all that's coming to them. Call it karma.

>

>

> I hate Nick Griffin, Paris Hilton and people who

> split their infinitives. Shall we kill them too?

> Or just lop off a limb?

YES YES YES TO PARIS HILTON!!

[Santerme]

jimmy two times Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sean you're right, I can't provide you with any

> examples of societies that have benefited from

> torture or capital punishment. I'm not armed with

> such stats on a daily basis. I'm sure if I was I

> could probably put some sort of spin on them to

> suggest that torture of criminals and enemies of

> the state and capital punishment do indeed create

> a better society. I'd imagine for one thing

> Britain in the 50s had less of a drug and crime

> problem then it does now, and capital punishment

> was still in force then.

You can make statstical cases that capital punishment deters crime, since Erlich in 1975 there have been dozens of studies which show that on average 8 murders are deterred for every execution that takes place.

However, it is the moral argument which is my objection to it.

As for torture, it is repellent in all forms and provides highly dubious information at best.

[jimmy two times]

Wasn't torture used in the second world war to great effect? I'd imagine many lives were saved on the information garnered. It's not for the squeamish, but perhaps a necessary evil......Even Jack Bauer is prone to a bit of it.

[lozzyloz]

Along with genocide, ethnic cleansing, capital punishment etc. All necessary evils?

[legalbeagle]

Jimmy, were you in fact one of the defendants in R v Brown? [see earlier post]. You do seem to love the idea of inflicting pain..........

[jimmy two times]

Would you torture a captured suicide bomber if the information received from him prevented a bomb going off and thus saving possibly hundreds of lives?

[david_carnell]

Would you kill 1000001 people if it saved 1000000 people?

Torture is NEVER acceptable. Ever. Without room for negotiation.

[jimmy two times]

'Along with genocide, ethnic cleansing, capital punishment etc. All necessary evils?'

No Lozzyloz they are not all necessary evils. What I described was torture of captured spies or enemies to gain information that saved thousands of lives. That was a reality in the second world war, and indeed in most wars, even if you fail to acknowledge it. How can you possibly intimate that I would also classify genocide as a necessary evil?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Too many episodes of 24

[bigbadwolf]

Too many episodes of Tenko.

[legalbeagle]

Too many secret passwords.....