Religion.....

[Keef]

Here you go Alan Dale, the thread is started, so ask away... >:D<

NOTE: If anyone personally attacks anyone elses beliefs on here, the whole thread should be deleted. We're all allowed an opinion, and should respect each other's!!!!!! :))

[oggers]

Have never really understood why someone's religious beliefs deserve a greater degree of respect than that given to any other view they might hold.

[Asset]

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people."

Karl Marx

[snorky]

They dont. They are conscious decision made to embrace a set of belifs or lifestyle.

Unfort. this means it is a handy defence.

" I think gays are scum and should be shot" = custodial sentence

"I believe because of my religion that gays are scum and should be shot" = perfectly acceptable , as its "belief"

[Keef]

oggers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Have never really understood why someone's

> religious beliefs deserve a greater degree of

> respect than that given to any other view they

> might hold.

I don't think they do... I think everyone's opinions on religion or whatever else should be accepted / respected, so long as they respect the fact that I disagree, and might want to argue a point with them.

For example, I have no time for racism, but I'd be inclined to have a bit more time for someone that would sit and explain to me why they feel how they do, and listen to my reasons for disagreeing, rather than just telling me to f**k off...

It's the same with religion as far as I'm concerned. People have every right to believe what they want, but they need to accept that that right is extended to everybody!

[Huguenot]

Aside from confusion at why anyone would voluntarily abdicate responsiblity to a reporting hierarchy where the decision makers can't be challenged without risking excommunication and burning at the stake (literal and/or metaphorical), the thing I always wondered was...

How do believers balance their faith in a supernatural being against scoffing at kids who believe in Santa Claus and the tooth-fairy to explain away the inexplicable? What about the Pantheon of Greek and Roman Gods? Are they all wrong, and you're right? Doesn't that sound completely bonkers? Really, really bonkers?

I can't accept answers involving the following: social benefits (that's politics) and the ten commandments (that's philosophy).

Religion seems to leverage those two elements to deliver power, control, segregation and eventually tribalism and hate.

[snorky]

agree

Ditto racism - But I have no desire to see the BNP shut up legally - they should pretty much be allowed to speak their mind and be answerable for their proclamations - in their case, i would show them to be the utter wnkers that they really are.

With religion, you cannot probe too deeply, as there is a point when the walls come up and the defence of "insulting my belief" stops any further didcussion.Usually anyway

[snorky]

actually people, this thread is going to die pretty quickly as its unlikely anyone is going to promote their paper thin absurd views and leave themselves open to pointed questions - so its lijkely to be one sided

[Alan Dale]

Thanks Keef but I fear that this thread will only have any value if someone religous is willing to put their beliefs under the microscope.

Failing that someone more familiar with the doctrine could perhaps try to explain to me:

1. Why does God take credit for everything good but doesn't take responsibility for anything bad? (Good business skills)

2. Why does God want to be praised- insecurity perhaps?

3. Why Christians in particular are so big on recruitment. Why the big recruitment drive?

4. Could perhaps the Church's wealth be put to better use?

5. Is it really acceptable that someone should be able to blame their invisible friend for their own intolerance?

Maybe *Bob* can help- he answered all of these questions years ago..

[mockney piers]

We do seem to all be preaching to the converted here.

Hmm, perhaps poor choice of phraseology.

[TillieTrotter]

so much for you respecting everyones faith there Snorky. Paper thin absurd views etc.

[Jah Lush]

There is no God, only religion.

[*Bob*]

I think I was being reasonably clear when I said about not wanting to rehearse tired old arguments about religion.

But others: feel free to knock yourselves out!

[*Bob*]

The questions are the same.

The answers are the same.

Why bother?

[citizenED]

thousands of Liverpool fans prepared to take time off work, spend thousands of pounds on travel and ticket (and for some of them the plane gets cancelled and they can't get there anyhow) and even then the game might be like that dross on Saturday. That is complete faith, completely illogical and cannot be figured by people who don't get football. Not unlike religion. Religion is psychological, not philosophical.

citizen

[Ant]

Atheism is as much a leap of faith as religion. If you want to be really rational about it then agnosticism is the answer.

[Jah Lush]

Hmmm... in that case, I worship at the Presleytarian Church of Elvis The Divine.

[Huguenot]

I used to be an agnostic, now I don't know...

I'm not sure I agree Ant: atheist could be defined as one who lives his life 'without' a god, rathan than 'against' a god.

Hence if an agnostic were to make rational, scientific or humanist decisions as a consequence of his/her lack of conviction then they could be described as atheist.

I should add that by extension, a 'religious' person doesn't have to believe in any particular 'god' so long as they adhere to the beliefs and rituals that go with their religon.

It just so happens that in my personal experience religious people happen to adhere to rituals designed to ingratiate themselves with a ruling class whose authority is founded on a unique correspondence with a particular supernatural being. Hence the Pope is 'Pontifex Maximus' - the big bridge....

By definition the authority of leadership is undermined by the existence of other gods to whom others have correspondence, hence religion winds up expansionist (hence active recruitment) and ultimately genocidal.

[mockney piers]

Indeed atheist doesn't mean antitheist, it can mean 'godless in conduct'

I don't have to deny the existence of gods to not live my life by their stipulations, I just have to not give a shit frankly.

You want to live your life according to a particular sky faerie's rules (aka stuff written down by blokes) then best of luck to you, just down burn me to death for not doing likewise please.

[Ant]

What I was saying was that atheism, as far as I understand it, is a belief that there is no god. However, there's no real evidence for that, just a lack of evidence that there is. So, agnosticism wins out in a way.

Having said that, I'm an atheist.

[James]

The more you think about it, the more all religions seem to be a load of rot. That bloke Richard Dorkins speaks a lot of sense. The issues with gay priests are the latest in a long line of failures of religion to engage with modern, egalitarian society. So once again it has to be dragged along, screaming and kicking until it is gradually cajoled into accepting difference, fairness and tolerance.

Let's face it, the Bible (like most religious books) is sexist, racist, mysogenistic, homophobic.... the list goes on. When will people learn to think for themselves and outgrow this childish need to feel like part of a tribe with a book of rules?

[Alan Dale]

The reason why it's as important now as ever to discuss the merits of religion is that it affects government policy.

It's a disgrace that religion and education are intertwined. If you can find 10% of the cost then you can now run your own faith school with the remainder paid for by the state. Once up and running you can teach creationism if you want to or any other unsubstantiated or intolerant beliefs.

And what about non-believers sending their kids to CofE or Catholic schools because of their exam records. How can you do that with a clear conscience? It's much more honest to pay for it yet somehow in centrist political circles that's discouraged whereas filling their heads with guilt and myth is absolutely fine.

[Huguenot]

Hmmm. Myth can nevertheless be the foundation of society.

A classic contemporary myth is the idea that if you commit a crime, you'll be caught and punished. Sustaining the myth leads to a constructive and inclusive approach to our neighbours.

In those areas where the myth is proven hollow (e.g. sink estates), crime is endemic and destructive. The margins are tiny: 550+ of the 600 crimes on the Bakerloo line last year were committed in 1 month by six individuals before they stabbed to death a young guy at Kensal and got caught. 300,000 locals were nevertheless living in fear.

Consequently I'm not against myths in principal, just against those given to support tyrannic (religous) government.

[James]

Totally agree. I am a vegetarian, gay and agnostic so can I have my grant to start a school for vegetarian gay agnostics please? I want to keep my son away from bad influences (anyone who is not vegetarian, gay or agnostic, who I frown upon). It is a matter of "conscience"...

[Jah Lush]

From Blake's Law Dictionary - Mania Fanatica: "a form of insanity characterised by a morbid state of religious feeling". Need I say more?