Mean people outside The Castle - what to do?

[Moos]

Read the OP, Growlybear.

[RosieH]

Yes yes Moos. You, quite clearly, are not intellectually subnormal.

Growlybear, since when has jeering been a compliment? The point about this kind of behaviour is that it's bullying, pure and simple. And as a woman on your own, you never know what reaction you're going to elicit, whether you choose to respond or ignore such crass and insulting behaviour.

I have on two occasions been threatened with rape when I chose to ignore the group of beered up lechers. Do I believe in hindsight that I was in real danger - on one occasion yes, on the other possibly not. Was I scared witless at the time - absolutely. I have had a bloke in a van shout suggestions about my genitals just as I met up with a client, because I had chosen to ignore his offers of taking succour in the back of his van. Not scary, but embarrassing as hell. There are countless other incidents of dealing with boorish morons like this. I haven't taken a single incident as a compliment.

prettyflowers, don't let the fuckers get to you - talk to the pub. And if that doesn't work, let's go down there and kick their asses.

[RosieH]

Growlybear Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

but personally, I would

> rather think that I'm not too much of a munter to

> warrant the odd teensy leer from the drunken

> intellectually subnormal oiks who are forced to

> stand outside the Castle if they want a smoke :))

Ah, ok, I get it now. See, I know I'm hot stuff and don't need a man several rungs below me on the attractiveness ladder to let me know. OF COURSE they're going to think so - statistically, probably about 70% of the population is going to be hot compared to them. I aspire to greater glories than being part of that 70%.

Edited to say that I am of course being sarcastic and I mean no offence. I'm a bit tipsy and this is a subject that really gets my dander up.

[Moos]

Growlybear, the penny has just dropped - now I get it. You know these people. You know their smoking habits, you've been a regular at the pub for 30 years, with your husband.

OK - so you are offended by people referring to your friends as drunken morons. That's very understandable. And perhaps when it's people you know, a friendly wink and a comment is a fun thing.

So, now we've found our ambassador. Please could you speak to your friends and tell them not to shout at girls they don't know, but stick to the ladies they do know enjoy this kind of banter? I'm sure, being normal, nice people, that they will understand.

[annaj]

Prettyflowers, I'm so sorry you've suffered the double insult of firstly being leered at by drunk men while on your own and secondly being told by other women that you should be grateful. Extraordinary.

Whistling, jeering, shouting and any other form of objectifying or intimidating is not flattering, it's rude.

And if it upsets pretyflowers then it is, by definition, not harmless, since harm has been caused.

[Growlybear]

No Moos, I said that I had used the Castle on and off over the years. I did not say that I am a regular, or that I would class the people with whom I am acquainted there as anything more than acquaintances, so you're not offending me in the least by referring to the customers as morons.

If anyone seriously felt that they were at risk of being raped, then that is an entirely different issue altogether and of course is completely unacceptable, but that isn't what the OP said. My comments have been based on the fact that I think a number of comments on this thread have been serious overreactions to wolf whistling and comments - particularly the ludicrous comment about posting photos of the people concerned.

[Moos]

Please don't misrepresent me - I have never said that the customers of the Castle are morons, and I never would. I said that people who jeer at girls are behaving in a moronic way, and I stand by that.

I agree that photos on this website would be totally inappropriate, for the record. But I'm still not seeing quite where you stand here - is it that anything less than genuine fear of rape is a compliment to one's appearance, or are we inching to a middle ground? What we have to go on here is the OP's original statement, which I quoted when I said 'jeering and leering', and which also described these people as pests.

[woofmarkthedog]

sophiesofa Wrote:

> Hop it gets sorted soon.

___________________________________________

Really, won't this just draw more attention ?

[Growlybear]

Moos Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> But I'm

> still not seeing quite where you stand here - is

> it that anything less than genuine fear of rape is

> a compliment to one's appearance, or are we

> inching to a middle ground? What we have to go on

> here is the OP's original statement, which I

> quoted when I said 'jeering and leering', and

> which also described these people as pests.

No, I don't think that anything less than a genuine fear of rape is a compliment, and I haven't said that at all. My first post was to express incredulity at the comment on posting photographs of the 'offenders'. I rarely post on this forum and doubt that I would have commented on this thread had I not read that particular post, because I actually thought at first that the thread was a joke when I read the first post.

The OP didn't say exactly what comments had been made to her, and I have done the same as I expect most people did, and assumed the type of remarks which were made given the use of the words 'jeering and leering'. My personal opinion is that for someone to be offended by wolf whistles, and coarse and suggestive remarks to the point where they bother to start a thread on an internet forum is an overreaction. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest, or anyone else I know. The OP didn't suggest that she felt physically threatened by the 'mean people' outside the Castle; had she done so, my view would have been very different.

[monniemae]

I don't think it was an overreaction at all. People post about all kinds of trivia on internet forums, and given your subsequent attempts to trivialise the OP's experience, her posting here was entirely appropriate. Plus as there is clearly at least one woman in East Dulwich who'd rather make crass comments about being 'not too much of a munter' than acknowledge that many if not most women would rather not deal with this hassle, it's been a more useful post than most in creating a forum for people to articulate their frustrations with catcalling and such.

[Mick Mac]

annaj Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Prettyflowers, I'm so sorry you've suffered the

> double insult of firstly being leered at by drunk

> men while on your own and secondly being told by

> other women that you should be grateful.

> Extraordinary.

>

> Whistling, jeering, shouting and any other form of

> objectifying or intimidating is not flattering,

> it's rude.

> And if it upsets pretyflowers then it is, by

> definition, not harmless, since harm has been

> caused.

Anna - this post is the voice of reason in this thread.

If for any reason the "first 4 hours" grinds you down, then psychology could be your next field of expertise.

[RosieH]

Growlybear, I feel I should clarify my post last night when I didn't really get my point across due to a slightly drunken fuzziness.

The thing about this kind of behaviour is that you have no idea where it could lead. When you're being jeered at by a stranger, you don't know if that stranger's going to be annoyed, encouraged or completely unbothered either way if you choose to respond or ignore. In most cases it will be the latter, but how to judge? And why should you have to?

Of course the incidents I mentioned were extreme to try to convey a point. There've been yet others where I've been physically manhandled (and I don't think my experience is uncommon) but in the vast majority of cases, (god knows how many over a lifetime) absolutely nothing further has happened at all. Except that I've been annoyed, sometimes embarrassed, occasionally humiliated. So does that make it ok given that I haven't felt remotely threatened? I don't think it does.

I can say with utter certainty that the reason I've never got my tits out for a site full of builders is not for want of being invited to do so.

[*Bob*]

Hey girls!

Do you have nice tits?

Are you 'no oil painting', but it wouldn't matter if you were being 'done from behind'?

Are you a three-pinter, or more like a five?

Are you all probably a lezza anyway?

ENJOY THE COMPLIMENTS!

[sophiesofa]

Oh *Bob*

[SteveT]

Growlybear wrote:- I actually thought at first that the thread was a joke when I read the first post.

No one else saw it that way.

Growlybear wrote:- My personal opinion is that for someone to be offended by wolf whistles, and coarse and suggestive remarks to the point where they bother to start a thread on an internet forum is an overreaction.

Often people use this forum as a sounding board to see if they are misunderstanding their position and getting unnecessarily irate about what you consider to be a small detail.

[star13uk]

I don't like the idea of people feeling troubled by jeers and leers and being made to feel uncomfortable. Just ignoring it, laughing it off or having to face up to drunken men and tell them off not always the best advice for everybody. It could even escalate and cause bigger problems. Some people can deal with that kind of thing, other can't. True - it is better if any of those solutions above resolves the issue - but does that excuse that behaviour in the first place? It is anti social behaviour - and causing alarm, distress or harassment to others (however harmless the intent) is an offence. The SNT should be told and hopefully they might have quiet word and tell them to behave a little better. The pub also has a responsibility for how its patrons behave - and words could also be had with them. i am sure those drinkers are not really aware of the effect they are having, and hopefully once they realise, they might behave a little better to passing people.

[Keef]

I'm amazed this hasn't been lounged, as it's more a general debate than one about the Castle, but anyway.

For me, blokes shouldn't be shouting that kind of stuff to random women they don't know, it's not on. I agree with whoever said that these blokes would probably never do this if they were sober, so perhaps the problem is that they're drinking too early.

I know you can't just blame the booze, but you only have to witness the behaviour of a lot of women on hen dos to know that this isn't an exclusively male issue.

[Brendan]

Drunk women frighten me, especially when they?re in groups.

[Keef]

Indeed!

[Sue]

Keef Wrote:

but you

> only have to witness the behaviour of a lot of

> women on hen dos to know that this isn't an

> exclusively male issue.

xxxxxxxx

So far as I'm aware, groups of women don't stand outside pubs and deliberately make men on their way home from work feel uncomfortable, Keef :-S

[Keef]

I wasn't really trying to suggest that women do the same thing, and make it a gender thing, I was just making the point that drink makes some people leary.

And as you've mentioned it, of course it's not as common, but believe me, I have seen groups of girls that I'd cross the road not to have to walk past. I can also safely say that I'd rather be a female stripper at a party than a male one!!! But I am going off topic.

[m7post]

hello - just a quick thought or two on this;

Absolutely the publican should be formally made aware of the bad behavior of his attendees, it is his responsibility to ensure good behaviour at the pub.

Someone above mentioned not worth contacting the police - this is not the case - make a formal complaint in writing every and any time this occurs - pub owners have to adhere to set rules and standards to maintain their license - if they do not they can loose it / not have it renewed or have any extensions etc - this is the type of action that will encourage the landlord to get his house in order.

[davy watts]

In Italy the guys stand around shouting cheeky comments to the girls. Seems to be part of the culture over there.

[*Bob*]

Given the choice between a sun-kissed dark-haired swoonboat, sipping a coffee whilst resting against his Lambretta and blowing you a kiss.. and someone covered in Dulux with slightly cross eyes and a dribbly chin making groping gestures.. I know what I think most girls would plump for.

[Jeremy]

What is a swoonboat? Is that a word you use often?

And you missed out the greasy ponytails. And the silver suits. And the turtleneck sweaters.