In East Dulwich in 2007 I would like to see...

[Guest]

Michael's probably with BT.. that would explain it.

[mockney piers]

BOOP BOOP.

Blimey, it works !! :?D

[Keef]

Michael Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

you may

> also just be sneaking in your internet fix at

> work, in which case you still seem to be working

> for a company affluent enough to be able to afford

> you the luxury of website browsing.

>

> ;-)

Er "AFFLUENT" isn't a word I'd use to describe a local authority..... Money wasters maybe.....

To be fair, I can't actually aford to buy anything in any area, despite the fact that myself and other half both have reasonably good jobs... It's scary down here looking up at the ladder! :-S

Oh well, I'll continue to spend my money on surfing the net, and drowning my sorrows :)-D

[shambles]

there is a serious lack of music stores. there used to be one near barclays which closed yonks ago. if there is a store i haven't noticed it.

[David Mc]

What sort of music? Sheet? Instruments? Records/CDs? There's a really good shop for sheet music (and classical scores/musicals/groups' compilations) on Grove Vale. They have odd things like metronomes, harmonicas, recorders as well.

http://www.slmusic.co.uk

[all_star]

For not2late and cookie, and others who are looking for a bike shop - have you tried the running shop near the station?

[Guest]

I agree with Keef. Who are all these Johnny-come-lately tossers who are driving the everyone who grew up here out of the area? Some of us might not want East Dulwich to become the new Clapham - we managed just fine without organic grocers, gay bars and vegetarian restaurants thanks.

PS Keef are you the Keith Jones who used to go to St Anthony's?

[Guest]

Ahhh.. yes. The good old days in the East Dulwich of old. Let's turn the clock back! We can start by boarding-up some of the shops, bars and restaurants on Lordship Lane, get the rubbish and graffiti back and raise the crime rate. Nice one.

[James]

At the risk of sounding like a total snob you can recognise the people who have lived here for a long time near where I live. They have England flags in their windows, take no pride in the appearance of their houses and behave in anti-social ways. The Claphamites are a bit smug and lack imagination. However I know who I'd rather live next door to! Likewise the choice between a dirty old pub full of aggressive chavs and an (albeit cliched) gastropub.

[Will_i_am]

I'd really like to see a decent clothes shop in East Dulwich. I know Ed sells nice things, but at extortionate prices. A nice mens clothes shop ideally. Something with a bit of choice.

A music shop. Something that sells a decent selection of CDs not just Keane and Coldplay, but a nice selection of all genres. Also perhaps somewhere that sells instruments. I have a trek on my hands to buy some new strings or a lead for my geetar if I need one that day.

A cinema, definately.

[CrystalClear]

oooh - have keane and coldplay made a decent album?!? >:D<

I'm sure the music shop up by the station does strings Will, though not much else. I've a couple of friends who dream about a music shop (usualy with a pint in their hands!). Good thing all round in my opinion. Not soooo bothered about a clothes shop, but it does seem to be a popular wish list item for us Dulites. However, I can't imagine an ED clothes shopping selling anything sensible! (btw - is that gents shirt shop by the round about still open?)

[Polly D]

Will_i_am

There's a music shop on Grove Vale called South London Music and whilst I don't think he sells instruments per se, I'm pretty certain he sells strings and other 'bits and bobs'. He'd definitely be a good person to contact about getting hold of instruments. He was v helpful in recommending piano movers and tuners. He started up last year so I'm sure as an independent local business he would welcome being on such a prestigious forum!

[Will_i_am]

Thanks Polly. I thought he sold sheet music and more classically inclined bits and pieces but I'll check it out.

[Guest]

Of course...East Dulwich is much better with everyone from the area driven out. Then when you turn 35 and have kids you can move out to the Home Counties too, make room for the next influx of Clapham wannabes

[batdog]

What exactly is a clapham wannabe ???

thanks (?)

[Guest]

According to TD75 it seems to be Vegetarians, Homosexuals and eaters of organic produce.

Hope this helps, Batdog.

[batdog]

Hi Bob,

This is bad news..

[Huguenot]

And thus the balkanisation of East Dulwich ensued... families torn apart and neighbour set against neighbour... ;-)

I can see TD's frustration, and I've got a lot of sympathy. I'm not sure that the focus is right.

East Dulwich has had a net outflow of residents since the 1920s when the basic housing stock was fixed, so this situation is nothing new. ED's only 100 years old, and there's been boom and bust every twenty years or so since. From the very first residents all of our families have been johnny-come-lately at one time or another, and suffered prejudice and abuse for it. That's not a good reason to keep repeating the cycle.

In the last couple of decades we've had a turnover in the type of resident in all central London areas as majority employment moved from blue collar industries to white collar financial and technology roles. It's not even necessarily to do with outsiders moving in, a vast number of city jobs went to the kids from East End blue collar families.

House prices aren't driven by tossers, but by localised high employment, economic growth and environmental factors. New residents don't want to evict current residents, and they don't want to pay high prices. They just want to find somewhere affordable within touching distance of work; supply and demand does the rest. We're all victims.

Between the mid sixties and the mid nineties ED was pretty much an ignored area of inner-London but didn't suffer quite as much as some areas from urban ruin (like the Elephant) because the transport links were so poor. Housing was reasonably widely available because nobody wanted to live here.... the entire high street was effectively shut down, and things like the cinema went with them.

It's great when change brings new life to an area, but we've got a major problem if the new residents fail to respect and integrate with longer term locals. I said it before on this post, but the creation of "exclusive" commercial outlets to make us feel "super special" are all about segregating society. This includes snooty, twee, over-priced foods and bars catering to people of a particular sexual orientation.

In a pretty liberal community like ED there's no need for it.

More importantly I'm afraid that if we pursue a strategy of smug 'self-actualisation' that excludes large swathes of local residents, then the outlets are likely to be a focus of that discontent. It's nothing to do with anybody's rights to have what they want, and all to do with a shared obligation for making ED great for everyone. TD's frustration is a symptom, not the problem.

[batdog]

Huguenot,

Your last post reminds me my old time at Harvard University..... when I used to be lectured by "wise" profs. ::o

[Huguenot]

;-)

[James]

Can Huguenot please explain why gay bars are elitist and contribute towards segregating society? And how gay men are supposed to meet each other if they don't have any? Are you endorsing cottaging?

[mockney piers]

James, I don't think Huguenot considered the gay bar itself elitist, I think he was just suggesting that it may be the thin end of a wedge towards segragation, just as Gypsy only bar might also be considered so, and that there's no reason not to utilise the bars we have as it's a pretty safe, liberal neighbourhood. This idea was then conflated with genuinely elitist establishment (hideously overpriced organic sex food shops for instance) contributing towards a class (well, wealth) segregation.

Though I wouldn't want to speak for Huguenot's endorsement or not regarding cottaging, I happen to know he used to attend Fulham matches, which has made him at one time and in one sense at least, something of a cottager!!

[James]

Is there something I should know about Fulham supporters? Anyway, getting back to the point about segregation, this argument reminds me of the fuss about women-only sessions at Dulwich Pool. What is the problem? if there is a need/demand for them, let's have it. If not, let's not.

What is bizarre is all these white, straight, middle-class men grumbling because something isn't tailor-made for them (for once). I'm gay and have a long-term boyfriend and sometimes it's nice to relax in a "safe" environment where you won't get nasty looks for holding each other's hands or being openly gay. This is something you wouldn't understand as you are not gay. Just like people may not understand why some women might want to swim without men present. I really don't see what people's sexual preference (or preference for organic sex shops, for that matter!) has got to do with segregation. Let's all just try to empathise a bit more, shall we?

[mockney piers]

I don't think we're grumbling that we're being excluded, I think we're just making the point that this would be a good area for genuine inclusiveness across all walks of life.

Indeed I have no experience of being discriminated against personally (though I have taken my lesbian mum and her wife down the pub together in far more provincial and straight laced north hertfordshire many a time), so if you feel you can't relax in the EDT with your boyfriend, that's something I can't comment on.

My suggestion would be that this is Thatcher's Blair's go get'em entrepeneurial society. Why don't you end the speculation on at least on of the LL sites that's in transition and set up a gay bar. You'll not only make all the M&S naysayers happy, but if there is the demand, then you'll make a couple of bob too*.

*just previewed, seriously, no pun intended ;?)

[Huguenot]

Indeedy, sorry for any confusion; I wasn't trying to imply a gay bar was elitist, inappropriate or undesirable. I was suggesting that it (and some of the other ideas) could be perceived as separatist and would become a focus of complaint for residents who felt newcomers were excluding them from the local community facilities.

As for gay men meeting each other, it may surprise you that most of the people in the current local watering holes don't want to sleep with me either. See this thread for similar comedy consequences http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?9,1513 . I don't see why we should create separatist establishments for any of us if it's likely to prove a handicap to integration. I understand that this could seem personal from your perspective, but I'm applying it to any and all forms of social discrimation.

I guess you were being glib about cottaging, as I couldn't recommend it unless with 25,000 others in West London. Your best bet could be the friends of friends, friends of workmates, friends of 'ex'es, dinner parties, blind dating, internet dating strategy that everyone else has to go through! ::o