Sorry Bromley

[LondonMix]

Bursaries as a percentage of total pupils is lower at the 3 Dulwich fee paying schools- though most bursaries are for most of the fees.

The number of bursaries on offer is limited by the size of the endowment and can only be enhanced by the endowment increasing the return on their assets-- ie. earning more rental income etc.

Those that condemn the 3 schools and the Dulwich Estate for not providing more bursaries while simultaneously suggesting the foundation should not charge market rents literally make no sense... (not specifically talking about you Duncan).

DuncanW Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> peckham_ryu Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I've been working in Croydon for a month.

> Seabag's

> > description is far from snobby - it barely

> > scratches the surface of the despair woven into

>

> > The Whitgift centre is that gift that gives

> > absolutely nothing,

>

>

> Au contraire, as it is owned by the Whitgift

> Foundation - a charity which runs three

> high-performing independent schools in the Croydon

> area. Although independent fee-paying schools,

> just under half the pupils pay no fees due to

> bursaries from the foundation.

>

> Compare and contrast to a similar charitable

> foundation closer to home.

[Rosetta]

What is a Bromley haircut?

[Salsaboy]

Similar to a Croydon facelift?

[miga]

Seabag Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Maybe in this metropolis and cultural smoothie

> we've created, even looking a little way out of

> 'the London bubble' has started to feel alien.

> Maybe the classic North South divide is too

> obvious. Even the Soth of the river thing is too

> clunky. Maybe we're fragmenting even further into

> South South divides

I think there's more to it - I think it's a process where inner London progressively displaces the poorer Londoners outwards. There are equally rundown neighbourhoods north of the river.

[DovertheRoad]

Ok so my first job in London ('97) was handing job vacancy leaflets to public outside West Croydon station. I was stopped by a Rastafarian guy who asked me "Do they give jobs to ?" which deeply troubled me as a new arrival at the time.

A few thoughts:

- Seabag has solid working class roots himself and has his usual tongue in cheek so *almost* gets away with it. Sydenham though...hardly a distinct beacon of cool diversity itself is it?

- Croydon is not pretty but it works. It's strangely functional in ways that other parts of London are not.

- It's all relative. Old time Londoners in Fulham and Hammersmith think East Dulwich is a shit hole.

- If you've grown up in a rural celtic village with quiet roads, clean air, low crime, jobs nearby and good public services then London will always be shithole. It's just a culturally rich shit hole full of boundless opportunity.

- Agree that the marginal but distinct demographic differences between specific suburbs in London are FASCINATING and have yet to be fully documented by modern day anthropologists.

- Agree Bromley is all fur coat with it's Waitrose and Chardonnay leanings - see Louisa.

/ message ends.

[LondonMix]

When people say the poor are being displaced who do they mean exactly?

For instance, in ED, back in 2001, there were 976 socially rented households (21% of the then total). In 2011 that number increased to 1,073; however, as mostly private market households were developed, the percentage dropped to 203%.

My neighbors rent from a housing authority and have been in East Dulwich for 30 years in the same house. They told me all their friends who owned their houses sold up and moved to Kent and they are the last old timers left.

No judgement but the people who left seem to be those who were well off enough to buy in the first place and have cashed in their property windfall. When I was looking to buy, a number of the houses being sold were buy older people in that situation.

I'm happy to be corrected and be told of the more complex story of forced social cleansing going on in this area-- genuinely curious if there is more to it.

[Louisa]

The truth of the matter is, many 'old time' folk from inner London locations such as our own, grew up in a post war world of optimism and wanting better for themselves and their kids. Many inner London locations were slums, including parts of Bermondsey, Walworth, Peckham & the Elephant. Whole families in converted Victorian bedsits through the 50s and even 60s. They wanted better for themselves, and who could blame them? Cashing in the two up two down terraced Victorian house for some clean country air isn't a crime. I am still contemplating it myself. This is why I see Bromley as a draw (and Kent). I've always looked outwards and beyond, wanting to be somewhere different to where I've spent my entire life.

On the other hand, the incomers want the reverse. They're sick of country air and boring lifeless samey suburbanism. They want to experience edgy inner London with terraced pretty Victorian properties etc. The fur coat and no knickers label is a bit unfair on those working class folk who just wanted to make a better life for themselves.

Louisa.

[miga]

LondonMix, do you always use very loaded words and phrases your interlocutor didn't? "Forced social cleansing". Jesus wept.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I bought my house from some people who'd bought it under right to buy. My neighbours house is a council property. Next door on the other side was a finance director and next to them a long term resident (I think that house might be council, or they might own it don't really know. There's quite a mix anyway. I don't recognise the picture often painted on here of everyone being rich, although there clearly are some wealthy residents who you probably wouldn't have found here in the past). It may be more diverse now than before 'gentrification', at least in terms of representation across the income spread.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The truth of the matter is, many 'old time' folk

> from inner London locations such as our own, grew

> up in a post war world of optimism and wanting

> better for themselves and their kids. Many inner

> London locations were slums, including parts of

> Bermondsey, Walworth, Peckham & the Elephant.

> Whole families in converted Victorian bedsits

> through the 50s and even 60s. They wanted better

> for themselves, and who could blame them? Cashing

> in the two up two down terraced Victorian house

> for some clean country air isn't a crime. I am

> still contemplating it myself. This is why I see

> Bromley as a draw (and Kent). I've always looked

> outwards and beyond, wanting to be somewhere

> different to where I've spent my entire life.

>

> On the other hand, the incomers want the reverse.

> They're sick of country air and boring lifeless

> samey suburbanism. They want to experience edgy

> inner London with terraced pretty Victorian

> properties etc. The fur coat and no knickers label

> is a bit unfair on those working class folk who

> just wanted to make a better life for themselves.

>

>

> Louisa.

Sounds like win win louisa

[Earl Aelfheah]

I actually feel much less concerned for long term residents in terms of gentrification (they largely seem like beneficiaries of house price madness), and much more for the young incomers (are they hipsters), who can no longer make a place for themselves in the Capital because of high rents, low wages and unobtainable property prices. London relies on people with talent and drive coming here and making it their home. It's hard to see that's going to continue when only oligarchs and football players can afford to live here.

[miga]

DovertheRoad Wrote:

> - Agree that the marginal but distinct demographic

> differences between specific suburbs in London are

> FASCINATING and have yet to be fully documented by

> modern day anthropologists.

Agree. There's Nairn, but that's heading up to 50 years old. Ben Judah, Tim Judah's son, has just written "This is London", which looks promising based on the excerpts I've read. There's the Will Self stuff, but that's a lot about him.

[LondonMix]

??? I was asking a genuine question

miga Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> LondonMix, do you always use very loaded words and

> phrases your interlocutor didn't? "Forced social

> cleansing". Jesus wept.

[miga]

Ok - yes, I think there's a well documented process that's been going on for several decades where people from inner London, generally working class, move to outer boroughs or Essex or Kent (or Australia or New Zealand etc.). I didn't comment on motivation. When people get sniffy about places like Croydon or Tottenham or North Kent, and talk about reduced gene pools, I see some historical resonance with being sniffy about slums. Someone further up even mentioned Hogarth. I'm just riffing, I could be way off.

[Seabag]

"A few thoughts (from DoverTheRoad)

- Seabag has solid working class roots himself and has his usual tongue in cheek so *almost* gets away with it. Sydenham though...hardly a distinct beacon of cool diversity itself is it? "

Sydenham is thoroughly meat & two veg, with a scattering of chicken boxes, gak faced builders and its own train station. Anywhere with a Chef's Delight and a Bose Chicken is OK with me

My Mum was a Northerner, does that count toward my 'working class roots' cred?

[????]

Seabag Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "A few thoughts (from DoverTheRoad)

> - Seabag has solid working class roots himself and

> has his usual tongue in cheek so *almost* gets

> away with it. Sydenham though...hardly a distinct

> beacon of cool diversity itself is it? "

>

> Sydenham is thoroughly meat & two veg, with a

> scattering of chicken boxes, gak faced builders

> and its own train station. Anywhere with a Chef's

> Delight and a Bose Chicken is OK with me

>

> My Mum was a Northerner, does that count toward my

> 'working class roots' cred?

No. Most northerners I meet in London are accountanr's daughters from Harrogate or solicitors sons from nice villages in the Peak District all pretending to be of mining stock.

[red devil]

Eee by gum :)...

[Louisa]

Personally, I have not met a working class northerner living in London (aside from visitors), for a good two decades now. All middle class heritage, all from respectable and comfortable families, heading to now expensive working class neighborhoods and transforming them to suit their own snobby gentrified ends. Not as wealthy not as annoying as Home Counties or suburban blow in's, but equally as contributory to rising house prices and forcing working people put into the wilderness zones.

Louisa.

[Jah Lush]

10/10 for Class Warefare Lou.

[Seabag]

I must admit, you'd never know my Mother was a Northerner, she's clipped and chipped her accent into shape, like a Surrey privet hedge

But, on occassion she'll drop a buuus (bus) or koo-ker (cooker) into a conversation, she's cool about it

That said, I still think she was a bit of a slapper. Not sure if that's exclusively associated with being 'working class' tho

She never (to my knowledge) worked down a mine

[peckham_ryu]

DuncanW Wrote:

-----------------

>

> Au contraire, as it is owned by the Whitgift

> Foundation - a charity which runs three

> high-performing independent schools in the Croydon

> area. Although independent fee-paying schools,

> just under half the pupils pay no fees due to

> bursaries from the foundation.

>

> Compare and contrast to a similar charitable

> foundation closer to home.

That is interesting, thank you for the insight. Nice to know that some good comes of trapping unsuspecting punters in the Whitgift maze ;)

[Jeremy]

TBF I thought that your Whitgift line was relatively amusing.

[uncleglen]

I knew a Liverpudlian who used to be a social worker and had elocution lessons to get rid of the accent. You would never have known to speak to her....so you never know. My granny was Irish but her parents changed her and her brothers' names and got rid of the accents but she always said 'fillum' for film....

[ultraburner]

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Peep Show is based in West Croydon and they show

> shots of Zodiac Court where the boys flat is based

> (it was actually filmed in a flat in Zodiac Court

> for the first two series before the owner of the

> flat objected to its use)

>

I lived in a house directly behind zodiac court from about 91-95, Cavendish rd.

You had the cartoon (metal/rock pub, not bad actually) round the front of the block.

And then you had sinatras. Their back door was directly opposite ours, which (for us)was actually good vfm for fri/sat evening entertainment :)

I actually live in (the borough of)Croydon now fwiw, but I just try not to go anywhere near the place if I can help it.

Ikea is near enough.