Frisco

"Is it THAT hard to cook for yourselves? I'll come and do it for you... but please. Ready meals... NO!!" Why have a now got a vivid picture in my head of Basil Fawlty beating up the Austin 1100 with a stick on his failed hotel 'gourmet night'?

"we DO (I think) have an abundance of pointless trinket and kitchen shops and estate agents." Well, over the last 15 years the trinket shops did tend to fill up shops that became empty on LL, arguably as a result of Sainsburys opening in ED in 1992/3, so that it never became so rundown looking that shops were converted to flats, etc. as has happened elsewhere - even in parts of ED. I think they were also part of the catalyst for the improvement in the area, so I'm a bit reluctant to be too critical of them. Also, take away the gift/trinket shops and what realistically would replace them? If the market was right here, we would have a decent bakery by now. I've never quite understood why ED Deli doesn't fulfil this role, like lots of delicatessens do. "There are some chain shops which I think are OK, and I would not be dismayed at an M&S or a Wagamama opening up." I'd prefer an independent Japanese food/noodle place myself, I think Wagamama is a bit too 'fast food', and things are now beginning to all taste the same.

"Where did M&S acquire its reputation for great food?" M&S food has been known for it's quality for many years, and probaly from a time when homogeneous quality was hard to find in food shops. My mother used to shop there for that reason, and even in their recent difficulties the food sales always remained very strong. While it's true that they've become a bit reliant on ready meals in recent years, I think their ready meals are generally of a higher quality than their competitors. I still have a soft spot for M&S salmon en croute. ;-)

"An Italian (not pizza) restaurant" Yes, that would be really good. It's sad how many kids just think that Italian food means pizza. A few years ago someone I know (who I believe now holds a very exalted position in Southwark Council) took a group of unemployed teenagers to Rome. Lets just say that they were very disappointed with the pizzas there, and wanted to order the proper ones like the ones from Pizza Hut. Oh how we laughed! ;-)

"What, no John Lewis for the poor, Alan?" John Lewis shop on Steatham High Road - those were the days! *Sigh*

"By the way Frisco. "horrific suburban high streets" do not have Space NKs and Jones the Bootmakers on them!" I think that depends where the horrific suburban high street is. Perhaps not Peckham, Streatham or Lewisham, but probably Hampstead, Esher, Guildford, Kensington, Kingston, etc.

"I don't think that Yo sushi is that great, however an independant place would be fantastic." Agreed. It's a pity that sushi van that operated in North Cross Road for a while wasn't in a unit. Hopefully places seeing stuff like that will open up in the new retail warehouse at the back of Cafe Nero. I'm happy for ED to be a place for new innovators, but accommodation needs to be affordable for that to happen.

"?????????????" It'll make you fat.

"It is hard for me to actually think of a better fit." Although it won't necessarily make you a better fit.

"Do we want ED to become like a horrific suburban high street?" My thoughts, exactly.

"Not an M&S PLEASE!" I think a decent M&S food shop would be good for me, but its negative effects on other, usually independent, food shops in ED would have to be considered. Also, shop rents/leases are rapidly increasing now, so imagine what effect an M&S might have on them.

"Nice to see I am in the Red section!" Are you over 109?

I don't like the proliferation of Estate Agents in ED, but I do recognise that there were previously quite a number of unused shop units in LL and elsewhere in ED. A decent bakery would be a bit of a risk, but one could probably survive these days, without being on sited on Lordship Lane. Word of mouth could be enough to get sufficient custom if it was good enough, even if it operated from a unit away from the main shopping street.

Well, first of all Booth's maps were mostly based on external perception of wealth and poverty (state of curtains etc) or the views of members of the local constabulary, and how much litter (in those days bread) there was on a street. I can't find my copy of Booth's book today, but I recall that, while there was undoubtedly poverty in East Dulwich, as there was all over Victorian London, I recall that there was only one no-go slum area, which I seem to recall was to the left at the top of North Cross Road at the junction with Crystal Palace Road. Are we back with the same mix? Well that really depends how you measure poverty, but I don't think we are. The extremes are not as great as they were in the 19th century, and I think that's reflected in East Dulwich. Although I don't think the map of ED would have been untypical of most areas of suburban London at that time, were rich and poor often did live in relative close proximity to each other.

* I think it's just as important to mention the intermediate stations too, rather than concentrating on the ends of the route. I would also make sense to press the point about the integration of public transport, and that this action undermines that. I also wonder if approaching the Mayor's office would be useful. It's hard to imagine that no one there has given any thought to this route, perhaps developing something similar to what's happened to the North London Line. * It's right that there is the option of using "due to short platforms, the doors in the last carriage will not open" announcements. They do work elsewhere. * I agree, it does suffer from a lack of publicity. People don't seem to know about it, but them maybe there hasn't been any incentive to market the route, if it's been the intention to close it.

"The point about the Great Depression is interesting. I hadn't thought about this before." Yes, it's amazing how subjects covered in one's education can crop up out of nowhere and become a possible connection with real life.

"I doubt Mo is going to bother contacting Network Rail or anybody else" It's ok, I'd already concluded that. I do know the term 'don't feed the trolls', but anyone can temporarily forget that when they get ANGRY! ;-)

"I love the way this started as a really serious thread about a really serious topic, and just went off the rails so quickly!" It may be that the serious discussion was exhausted pretty quickly. However, I find it hard to issues like this seriously when people lurch into making blanket allegations about the social behaviour of different classes. It makes me ANGRY! ;-) (<- just for Mo)

"You are an angry soul. Do try and let it go." Not at all Mo, probably far less angry than you are patronising. "Channel it toward Network Rail?" Surprisingly, that's more or less what I was doing when I described their proposal as stupid, although this was expressed more in disbelief than anger.

"But when Network Rail produces astounding statistics showing the very limited London Bridge tracks must be relieved, and that cutting a zone two connection with multiple bus services within easy reach stacks up better than curring suburban services with longer platforms and more carriages and no other option, then you might find it difficult if you don't craft your answer in advance." Good for you, and this analysis is a good use of your time and energy, and should be targeted towards Network Rail, which every stance you choose to take on the issue, rather than expending it pointing out the flaws in the arguments of others, or banging on about that you don't approve of their choice of words or tactics.

I'm getting so many unsolicited letters from them at the moment that I'm considering taken them and dumping them on their floor, or stuffing them through their letter bow during the night.

"Perhaps you are far more experience than I am in these matters. It just occurs to me that in gearing up for a fight, a solid argument that anticipates their strongest weapons would be more useful than shouting that they are stupid. Emotional arguments win the meeting but not the issue." Each to his own Mo, but there are a whole range of tactics that can be employed in such campaigns, and most of them don't involve fighting. You may have noticed that the media don't tend to hold back or agree with your rather coy approach, when it comes to getting things done.

"There was also a fair number of requisitioned properties rented out by Camberwell Borough Council." According to land Registry records, my house fell into this category, having been in the ownership of the LLC for several years after the war. "An additional problem for modernisation was the number of properties with two or more households in one property with no structural internal division (typically one up, one down)." It was in multi-occupancy too until something like 1964, and when I move in it still had two gas meters. However, there had been no internal division between the two floors. "A local estate agent's brochure from c1880 seems to support the history books and confirm that a significant proportion of these properties were built for rental." From memory and reading I've done about ED, I don't think it's the case that the house were built for rental. It happened that in the 1880s there was a glut of newly built houses, and many of the streets in the area stood empty for a long time after being built. I also seem to recall that this coincided with a cyclical and national economic recession in the 1880s. I suspect that the rental market was a way of getting them occupied at the time.

"My experience in such matters has taught me often our micro view of something pails a bit when seen in the macro. It doesn't lessen the impact on our daily experience, but seen as a whole, there is solid reasoning for proposing such changes. Consultation is about ensuring the macro view isn't missing something important seen by those of us on the ground, as it were." My experience has taught me that it's wrong to assume that only the representatives of transport companies are capable of thinking strategically, or take the long view. One only has to think of Dr Beeching for that to be brought into question. "I hope the service is retained - even expanded. But as much as we can blame Network Rail for not seeing our view, they can probably make a very solid argument (without using words like 'stupid') that the greater good will be served." I can think of worse words than stupid to use regarding them. Mo, do you have any experience of dealing with transport officials and tying to influence them, because I do. Ten years ago I was involved in a campaign to have a bus rerouted and was told it was impossible to do. Several years later, exactly what we had early proposed as a solution, but were told was impossible, was put in place. Nothing had changed in that time. I can only imagine that different people with different mindsets were put in charge. The original people we had to deal with were both obtuse and stupid, and I make no apology for using those terms.

"Frisco - I've read your post a couple of times and I'm not sure what you're trying to say." That's a pity, it seemed clear to me.