Frisco

"I'm simply applauding the Maudsley, which has been working on this for quite some time." And I'm simply suggesting that you should do so without appearing to put down the efforts of others. "Surely anyone agrees such a sell by a Trust takes time." It also took time for the properties to reach their current state of neglect and disrepair, under the stewardship of...? "As for my assertions re: community groups, I stand by them." Good for you Mo, the band on the Titanic played on regardless, as well. "Perhaps we are both making shots in the dark." I think I suggested that. However, that doesn't mean that lobbying those people who are responsible for decision making is necessarily futile, by whatever means or by whom it is undertaken.

"By whom?" I don't think the posting was meant to be taken seriously (a kind of 'Revenge of the Southwark Recycling Officers).

"No but I know someone who is." Ah, really just hearsay then; particularly about who and what did or didn't influence decisions regarding Windsor Walk, either directly or indirectly, through the lobbying of officials, politicians or others. I'm not sure it's wise to make claims that people or groups have accomplished 'zilch' or have no influence, as mere mortals such as you, and probably most of the rest of us posting on this forum, can never really be in possession of all of the facts regarding that, unless you yourself are an insider and at the very top, which, of course, you've confirmed you are not.

"I loved it when it first opened....when it was practically a gutted shell of a house with small dark rooms, hard seats but fantastic cakes and great coffee served in cafetieres..." Seconded. However, the last time I went in there it seemed a shadow of its former self.

"I can assure you pressure groups, in particular this and the SE5 Forum, have had little if anything to do with it. This has been on the cards for some time. You can't really expect a few emails in the last six months prompted such a quick turnaround? Deluded." What's the source of your knowledge on the issue, and what's worked and hasn't worked in terms of influence, Mo? You give the impression of being very informed. Are you connected to the Maudsley, in some way?

"do remember it is one part of a bigger fight just to maintain the status quo. It's hardly a 'very positive' step forward. At best, it is a good start toward not letting things worsen." On the contrary, my argument has been that Network Rail shouldn't be taking actions (the closure of this route) for short term gain, just before rail commuter routes will pass to the management of the Mayor and TfL, which could well undermine any future opportunity for developing an integrated route. It is not about maintaining the status quo at all. For me it's about not undermining the existing customer base and future development, because that would be a stupid and shortsighted thing to do.

I think a poppy wreath would be a good idea, but not with real ones, as it wouldn't last. I think traditional Hague Fund/RBL poppies would be better, and they last longer. Plus the cost of purchase goes to an ex-service people's charity, which, as well as remembrance, is what it's all about. See the page in this link, and scroll down to the section headed 'fundraising': http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/contact/Contact-Us-509170.shtml#3 Well done for doing this PP.

"So Frisco... Am I correct in saying that the reason the children who have been dysfunctional, violent, aggressive and thuggish in east dulwich of late have done this at no fault of their own?" I have no idea, but I'd suggest that you don't yet know anything about their backgrounds either. Besides, I was responding to a comment made by someone to the effect that they hadn't been punished sufficiently for their crime. My comment extended no further than that, as I'm not normally given to making blanket statements or condemnations (or, come to that, the over use of exclamation marks to make my point). "Could it not be, as already mentioned, that these kids are bored, have no parental support and think that they can 'get away with it'! In fact I wouldn't be surprised if their parents aren't kicking the kids out into the street or waiting round the corner for them to return with Ipods! Adults will certainly inform their children actions, so whether its an adult or a child being thuggish, either is unacceptable!" You know, I can't see how this in any way differs from the views I gave that the two children concerned who murdered James Bulger were, through no fault of their own, the victims of a chaotic and dysfunctional upbringing. Are you sure you're arguing against the points I've made? "As a cyclist, anyone jumping lights, riding on the pavements, thank you for giving us cyclists who abide by the rules a bad reputation! I have been knocked off a few times, but that still does not give me the right to break the law!!" I'm afraid you've lost me with this one as well, but I'm glad to hear that you're a lawful cyclist. Keep it up!

"CWALD....the two Bulger murderers DID get away with it though didn't they?" Only in as far as society removed two children who had, through no fault of their own, been left to lead chaotic and dysfunctional lives, and now presumably society has two young people who are able to constructively lead almost normal lives (apart from the constant fear of being exposed). In terms of worry and fear, when I think of the Bulger case the worries and fears I found myself having are more to do with the sight of an adult mob attacking the van in which the two young perpetrators were being transported to and from court, than any future danger from them. I also find myself worrying about what kind of punishment those people, and others who claim the two children weren't punished, would like to have seem happen to them. However, that case was, thankfully, highly unusually unusual and isn't part of the daily experience, particularly not in ED.

"Civility is declining, and it is precisely that which makes like more stressful." If only it were as easy as that, you'd make a fortune. We live in more of a dog eat dog and individualist society now, which isn't the fault of young people or individuals. I'm pretty sure that had they been more prevalent 25 years ago, people would still have been talking loudly in inappropriate places on mobile phones. Older people have always thought that younger people are less civil, but some of the most uncivil people I deal with happen to be older and oblivious to their own incivility. "Do you like it when you see people drop litter on the bus? When they instinctively put their shoes on the seats on trains or the bus? When they push in front of you because they can't be bothered to join the queue? Do you think that these things don't shriek of 'sod you, I don't care that others are around, I'm going to do as I please (maybe because I have little control over parts of my life so I rebel in this way)'? Those things stress me out much more than my job or foreign travel or being late for an appointment. I don't want to criminalise anyone, but I do want respect (and not the bling version of it, which translates to 'fear me, or I'll do you in') and common courtesy." No, I don't 'like' these things, but they tend to make me go tsk than angrily shout. I don't want to see most of these things (which are more anti-social that criminal) heavy handedly controlled by the law and police. However, I do try to not get too worked up by these things as, like you, there's very little I can do about it, and I don't wish to be thought of an 'anal'. If everyday things like this stress you out, it can be dangerous for people of a certain age, I'd be inclined to have a chat with my GP. "Now, was that milk or lemon Mr/s Frisco?" Neither, and just Frisco is fine thanks.

Nero said: "Disagree Frisco. There is no need to run a zebra crossing." I never said there was, as you will see if you carefully read what I wrote. As a motorist and occasional slow pedestrian, I abhor it. However, setting aside jumping lights, I also abhor views that seem to treat all minor infractions, and what used to be considered as childhood and adolescent mischief as the ultimate in serious behaviour. This, together with a general intolerance for others who don't do things exactly as we'd like them to, is probably one of the reasons life has become so stressful. This also why we now seem to be living in a surveillance society, where real and habitual criminals will still know how to avoid being caught, but the cost of equipment will be justified by prosecuting minor transgressors. It seems to me that some people may be happier living somewhere like Singapore rather than ED. I wouldn't.

"It is illegal to ride a bike on the pavement, but our police officers rarelhy prosecute. It is illegal to smoke dope in the street, but again, it has kind of become accepted in some parts. Please don't underestimate the sigificance of these infractions. I don't have children, but if I did, I would be very active in trying to make sure these 'little' lawss were adhered to." However, the fact is that children and adults have always ridden bicycles on pavements (I'm not condoning it), although I'm not sure that adult cyclists have always jumped traffic red lights, and police have always used their discretion regarding prosecution, which is how it should be. It's also a fact that there is more emphasis today on formally dealing with minor infractions that there ever seemed to be. However, it's even more of a fact that many of these minor infractions were previously regarded as childhood and adolescent mischief, which seems to be less tolerated now than it was in the past. What we seem to see now are demands for the criminalisation of childhood/adolescent mischief, without the people who do this realising that it inappropriately and unnecessarily clogs up the criminal justice system, and results in otherwise law abiding young people acquiring criminal records. On the dope issue, I have mixed views on this, but I would rather that this was dealt with through dissuasion and education about the potential dangers of long-term use of cannabis, than automatic prosecution. Personally, I would rather that scarce enforcement and police resources were used to prevent people who used drugs and/or alcohol putting themselves in situations where they could harm themselves and others (e.g. driving).

"It's half term now, and I have no idea what there is my daughter to do in the area." I'd like to think the link below would give you the information you need for the ED area, but I can't see it. http://cypdirectory.southwark.gov.uk/ It seems that holiday schemes may have changes, since childcare mostly became a money-making commercial operation.

"oh please! how many attacks have there been recently?" Well, do you know how many? Or that they are all carried out by 'the youth of East Dulwich'? "regardless of knowing what happened it would appear that this type of behavior is on the increase and what will it take till this changes..." Is it on the increase? I'm not aware that it is. As I've commented recently on other threads, ED seemed to be a far more threatening and dangerous place when I came to live here 20 years ago. The main difference between then and now seems to be that violent incidents are almost instantly publicised (no bad thing for catching the perpetrators) on the internet and discussed. The drawback is that some people seem to think that this greater knowledge of what happens is representative of an increase. Personally, I doubt that. "are we meant to sit back and only pass judgment when it suits us??" We pay others to pass judgement, and those people are hopefully informed and immune from the influence of hearsay.

"i think its time the youth of east dulwich get what they deserve! why should a group of 16 year olds be able to cause pain, terrorise and torment people who work hard and pay taxes to give these kids an education that is clearly thrown back in our faces." Perhaps it would be wise to wait until you know what happened before passing judgement and sentence.

_No.... they were 2nd. Best was Edinburgh. Worst was Middlesborough._ Yes, you're right. That must have been when I switched off.

"Not sure who were the eventual winners and losers..." Best: Epsom and Ewell. Worst: Kingston Upon Hull.

I lived in a flat off Essex Road from 1980-82, and have lived in ED for exactly 20 years. In those days Upper Street was almost exactly identical to what LL is like now, but with the added advantage of greater business presence and higher grade Georgian housing nearby than East Dulwich has. Also, although LL is moving in the same way that Upper Street developed after that, access probably makes a significant difference, with Upper Street having a tube station at each end. Also the Upper Street area had, even at that time, far more large-scale commercial development (with a consequent large daytime working population) than ED has, and there was something edgy and even bohemian about the place, which has never been the case with ED or LL. Upper Street also had the advantage of over ED of being a destination for entertainment, such as Sadlers Wells, the Kings Head and Screen on the Green (although ED did have comedy), and was also home to lots of alternative cultural activities. It also had the draw of a large street market, a large shopping centre, as well as being a major bus hub and within striking distance of three major rail termini. It was also a tourist destination in its own right, even in the early 1980s, for such things as Camden Passage antiques market and businesses owned by famous restaurateurs. Personally, I think that it isn't easy to make a direct comparison between LL and the regeneration and development of Upper Street because of the cultural catalysts missing from the development ED, and LL will never really develop on the same scale.

_Thatcher lived in Dulwich_ Though never in ED, and she probably never ventured further that DV.

"There used to be a cinema club at St Thomas More hall, is it still going" I was trying to remember the name of that place as a potential site for an indoor market on LL, if it ever closed down. I've only been in there once for a Christmas Fayre type thing a couple of years ago, and it was bit of a dump. Also, if the Constitutional Club was a bit more entrepreneurial they could update one of their big rooms to hold events, possibly including a cinema club.

"East Dulwich Cinema was opposite Goose Green next to Grove Vale School redeveloped for essential worker housing not that long ago, was it London House?" Yes, but it wasn't one of the very earlier and smaller cinemas that now tend to accommodate art-house cinemas, like Screen of the Green and the Electric Cinema.

"but a decent art-house-style cinema would be good." I don't believe that ED had one of the earlier, and therefore smaller cinemas that these seem to be housed in. It's a pity that the there isn't somewhere closer on similar lines to Clapham Picture House or the Ritzy, but even if there were, the curent population my not be able to sustain it. Besides, I like to venture out to wild-west outposts like Brixton and Clapham occasionally, just to see how they manage without the ED factor!

"Pratts was part of he John Lewis partnership." Yes, it closed down at the start of the last recession (1988 or 89), apparently as part of a planned contraction and consolidation of business, along with other local JLP shops like the one in Holloway Road (where the Waitrose now is). I have to admit it would have been a nightmare to upgrade Pratts, and parking would be an absolute nightmare now.

"Wasn't that Pratts?" I knew you'd remember that name Oldie!

"(take aways don't copunt as ready meals)" In your dreams! It also depends how many of them you have a week.