zeban

Ok, just to clear something up: 'Vintage clothing is a generic term for new or second hand garments originating from a previous era.Generally speaking, clothing which was produced before the 1920s is referred to as antique clothing and clothing from the 1920s to 1980s is considered vintage.' Wikipedia. Vintage is not just another term for second hand as some seem to think it is. Talk to vintage buyers, they go and source their clothes from far and wide and can tell you which era the fur they're selling is from. Fur made now isn't necessarily going to end up being vintage- you'll probably have to talk to costume designers/vintage buyers to get accurate info but fur was much more popular in the 20th Century than the 21st Century which is where most vintage coats come from and will continue to come from. Those who were furious at the woman for selling a vintage coat were furious at a 20+ year coat. I think if you want to get angry about animal rights issues then deal with practices that are going on now. I realise some fur is still used in the fashion industry now which I think is outrageous but then target those shops instead of shouting down an easy target on the internet.

I agree that I didn't think it wasn't fair to start an ethical debate on the sales section. Hence why this one has been created- perhaps you could have done that rather than have a pop at the poster trying to sell something. You're clearly very passionate Aquarius Moon, and you're very good at taking your beliefs all of the way, and I think that's great. Maybe I'm not as dedicated as you but I make choices on some things regarding animal rights. In this debate I feel vintage fur is ok. I'm assuming you don't but I do think it's interesting to have a range of opinions on these matters. No one is trying to shoot anyone down, it seems to be quite a healthy debate despite a few jokes!

I've just been reading about this, it does seem the calves often end up as veal or after a few years pet food. I didn't realise this although it is quite obvious. So the milk industry and veal industry are inextricably linked. There do seem to be a few things being done to try to make dairy farming more ethical: 'Here at Compassion in World Farming we have been working with the RSPCA, on the Beyond Calf Exports Stakeholder Forum bringing together key stakeholders to find economically viable solutions to the exporting or shooting of male diary calves. Part of this forum looks at using dual purpose breeds, who?s male calves can be reared on for beef. You can find out more about this on our website at http://www.ciwf.org.uk/what_we_do/calves/beyond_calf_exports.aspx. We also launched our Calf Life - Wanted not Wasted campaign in August 2009 aimed at encouraging individuals that already buy veal and restaurants who serve veal to switch to higher welfare British Rosa veal. Find out more at http://www.ciwf.org.uk/what_we_do/calves/calf_life.aspx. there are options for the compassionate shopper... Soil Association organic rules prevent farmers from exporting their calves. So their calves will not be going to the continent to be reared for veal; however, Soil Association farmers may be shooting some calves at birth because there is not enough of a market for them. A good solution would be if they raise their male dairy calves for beef or veal in the UK. UK veal is produced to higher welfare standards than in the EU. Buying British beef and veal will help develop markets so that calves can be reared in the UK. Other organic standards do not appear to prevent farmers exporting their calves or shooting them at birth. Some supermarkets are working to find humane alternatives to calf exports. For example, M&S has explicitly advised its dairy farmers not to export their calves and is working with them and with others to identify a humane and ethical alternative. If you buy milk from a supermarket you can write to them and ask them what their milk suppliers are doing with their male dairy calves. Also look out milk from more sustainable breeds of cow such as Dairy Shorthorn and Ayrshire (for instance Duchy Originals milk) which do not have the same problems as black and white dairy cows. So in buying dairy milk you may well be contributing to the live export of calves, unless you choose: (a) Soil Association milk (b) A retailer with their own sustainable supply chains © Milk from sustainable breeds. Also try reading about http://www.goodveal.com/ and you can see information on our appeal here: http://www.ciwf.org/home/nov05appeal.shtml

Oh Loz

Oh jeez Loz, I wasn't even talking about being a vegetarian there. I was talking about having a stance on not killing animals PURELY for their fur. I was saying people kill animals for to eat, so use all of it instead of killing more animals just for fur. I got defensive because I thought I was taking quite a sensible approach to this debate but there were still silly jokes made. I'm actually vegetarian mostly for health reasons and money reasons- it's cheaper not to buy meat because if I bought it I'd want to buy organic which is expensive and something I can't afford. I also think it isn't great for my health. That's a personal choice though. I'll just remind you of your joke though Loz 'If a steak restaurant cook and serve steak and a fish restaurant cook and serve fish, why don't vegetarian restaurants cook and serve vegetarians?'- Chip on my shoulder or chip on your shoulder?

Narnia, I'm not religious in case you're checking! Just edited the above to word it properly.

Ok, my post was a very defensive response to Rosie's post which I clearly didn't read properly so apologies for that. Silly jokes on interesting debates do annoy me though but you're right that they were more to do with the hypocrisy of meat eaters than vegetarians so apologies again. Really didn't want to start a whole vegetarian debate :-S @ Pearson- they would be farmed to be killed so they'ld still be endangered! Keeping an animal from extinction is about appreciating the animal for their place in the world, alive, not seeing them alive only to be killed again purely for human consumption/use. Animals do not exist on this planet just so we can use and abuse them and then 'breed' more when we've killed them off. Many species were here before we were and have an important role to play in the natural food chain.

What veges here have said they'ld wear fur? If you mean me I said I'd buy vintage fur but NEVER new fur because to me there is a huge difference. If you think that's 'hypocritical' of me that's up to you. At least I have some values. Very typical of those that have none to cry hypocrisy on those that are still trying to do something. Life isn't black and white and I don't go around criticising other people for their personal choices. As it goes I've never actually bought any vintage fur and was arguing against people's very harsh criticisms of the lady selling her vinatge fur coat. Calves are killed for meat, they're not a bi-product of the dairy industry. They wouldn't be killed for meat if people didn't eat meat whether their Mum's/Sister's produced milk or not.

Hmmm the last few posts have typically gone anti-vegetarian, and quite frankly ridiculous. The argument was actually about fur and the fur industry. Why can't people ever have a grown up conversation about issues such as these without referring to the same childish responses and stupid ideas.. Mockney Piers last sentence a good example- you want to breed endangered animals just so you can skin them??? A joke or not that's seriously sick.

I'm sure there's plenty of left over crappy bits of animals already killed for human consumption that can be used in pet foods. You don't need to kill more animals just for pet food.

Actually you'll find pretty much all cheese is not made with animal rennet anymore, it's a practice not normally used anymore- look at the back of cheese packets. Unless you go to specialist cheese shop but they'll tell you which ones are suitable for veges. Majority are. Cheese isn't a bi-product of the meat industry. Although animals who are reared for dairy can also lead pretty much miserable lives hence why organic is what I buy. @ Pearson: I suppose I feel we've come along way in animal rights over the times, at least trying to outlaw some unecessary practices such as killing animals simply for their fur. And there is more/better legislation these days. Also, I mentioned that people ate rabbits more in the olden days thus a rabbit coat may well have been a bi-product of the meat industry back then, like leather, but rabbits aren't commonly eaten now so if someone made a rabbit fur coat now or a lot of rabbit fur coats, I'd think they killed them simply for their fur. What a huge waste of life. Maybe my argument doesn't make sense to some, I'd rather no animals were killed for anything- I don't eat meat- but if you're going to kill animals I'd rather there were less killed and those that were killed were utilised fully.

Cheese? are you serious? Animals don't die to make cheese

All Mum's and babes in ED and then watching this programme is making me EXTREMELY broody! I cry at every birth they show. The birthing pool this week definitely made me decide I want a pool birth- I've always loved being in water, and I like the way you can hang onto the edges! Seems like you're more in control of finding a comfortable position than laying on a bed.

I care very much about animal rights but I don't see any problem with wearing VINTAGE fur. I'd never buy NEW fur, especially if it's from an animal which isn't used for it's meat. It seems to me as bad as killing Rhinos for their horns, or Sharks for their finns. I think people were very harsh at the woman selling the coat, you find vintage fur sold at most vintage fairs/markets/shops- would those people have a pop at the owners of these places or was she just an easy target because she's online? I also can't be historically accurate in this but I'm wondering if people would have eaten the rabbits back in the day? if it was more likely that rabbits were used for their meat?

Libraries are not redundant Pearson, your point wasn't proved! If you went to one they're always busy, with people using them! And the amount of kids/teenagers I see using them (and not always accompanied by parents) always makes me happy. Instead of seeing books, films, music as a commodity, borrow them and immerse yourself in free/extremely cheap culture and entertainment.

Yep I grew up in London. It does make a massive difference doesn't it? I would have loved to do all of that outdoors stuff, I really loved nature growing up, I used to sit in my Mum's garden bird spotting with a pair of binoculars! She took us on holidays around the UK where there were more outdoorsy things to do but I don't think she got much time to herself which is a shame really. I don't know how she didn't go mad!!!

I don't agree with that at all ClareC, although my Mum's 58, I'm only 28 and my Mum's youngest is 13 so she's still very much a Mummy! It was ALL about educational play with her, it still is, especially as we had very little money so she took full advantage of all of the free activities/ low cost which were all educationally aimed- eg. museums etc. My brother from a very young age has been into loads of sports activities which she's taken him too, the rest of us did dance, gymnastics etc. We never 'played out' with other neighbourhood children. She didn't prioritise looking after the house above doing stuff with us, she just managed to find a healthy balance by staying on top of the housework. We didn't have loads of visitors coming around, and didn't worry about others expectations of her, the house wasn't a spotless house, it was relatively tidy and clean simply so she wouldn't drown in housework! When you're on your own I think you just have to be more organised because there's noone else to pick up the slack. I can see HER parents were the way you describe though.

This thread has started me wondering what my Mum did. She had 5 children and brought us all up on her own. We had a really small house though so no spare rooms to dump stuff in so maybe that's what pushed her to keep everything in check, and made it more manageable. I don't know how she coped though!

Well,'many years ago'is probably the key sentence there. There are loads of libraries in Southwark, they have a little fold up mimi pamphlet with all of the libraries addresses available in all libraries. You can have a look at the website too. Anyway I'm not going to try to sell the libraries to anyone anymore. If you don't want to take full advantage of the great FREE resources we have on our door step that's up to you, and it means less of a queue for the Mad Men box sets anyway!

Daisy I don't know when you last went to the library, I'm thinking it must have been a really really long time ago. All staff in Southwark libraries are young and part of the local community. I LOVE LOVE LOVE Southwark libraries, They're so brilliant. All types of people use them from all backgrounds. I saw Jo Brand in Dulwich library at the weekend. Southwark have the best libraries of all boroughs I've lived in. Great books, DVDS, and CDs, and free use of computers. As well as running workshops, talks and kids clubs, free WIFI, recent magazines to read. Libraries are so important in the community and am very glad Southwark are fighting for theirs. I think you should get out more Daizie instead of showing such an outdated attitude towards libraries.

Absolutely agree that Geoffrey Rush was superb, best performance in the film. I Thoroughly enjoyed the film, and not just because I have a huge crush on Colin Firth!

PR- whilst already knowing what an awful trade it is I think it is still worth watching. To actually see how awful it is has made me more educated and more importantly look further into what I can do to help. Unfortunately whilst it is the Chinese market that eats Shark Finn soup there are other countries, including our own, that take part in selling the products to consumers. This I learnt from the programme. A few tips on what you can do to help from the Shark Trust: http://www.sharktrust.org/content.asp?did=34481

After watching this tonight I feel incredibly sad and emotional. Did anyone else watch this? I'd recommend it if not. Here's a link to some info on the Channel 4 website about Shark finning if anyone is interested: http://www.channel4.com/4food/on-tv/fish-fight-extras/shark-finning

Thank you so much, that was me!

???? Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > David Beckham has made the most of his undoubted > talent as a footballer and his good looks to make > a fortune. He has spoken out more vocally than > many against racism and homophobia and seems on > balance a rthoroughly decent man far, far better > than many of his contemparies. > > > ....and yet, and yet, us no marks from SE22 come > out with the normal tall poppy shite like > talentless, useless, lucky from the cosyness of > our computers and our manifest lack of > achievement > > > Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Absolutely agree with you Quids. Although I might be the only woman who doesn't think he's attractive!