Mark Dodds

@tllm2 You had a bad experience and shouldn't have. I'm really sorry about that. It's not acceptable and I don't take this sort of feedback lightly. Neither does anyone who works at The Sun and Doves. Luke, our bartender who's been here for six years or more found your 'review' and told me about it with concern. I'll deal in detail with what happened below, not as an excuse more an explanation, and hope you can bear with me through the next paragraph while I put An Other, different reality forward. While you had a bad experience I assure you and the mass of esteemedly critical customers out there who are quick to accept tllm2's assessment as a permanent indictment of our standards without trying the place for yourselves that we frequently get customers - old and new and right now - currently - not in the past - telling us that X was brilliant or Y is the best we've ever had. Only two Sundays past an American woman told a friend of mine 'I had the best Sunday roast ever in this lovely pub near Kings on Coldharbour Lane'. She couldn't remember the name until my friend asked if it was the Sun and Doves. It was. This week we had two separate lunchtime customers feedback similarly about food and I OFTEN am congratulated on the friendliness, professionalism, care and attention our staff show toward their customers. On top of that we do more work than almost any other bar I know to make sure that interesting things are happening most of the time and we are very actively used as community hub and general social resource which is, I believe, what pubs ought to be. Back to the detail of tllm2's ghastly experience. We've recently been thin on the ground with experienced people because for entirely disparate reasons three of our long standing people emigrated, went travelling or moved alewhere in UK and others are on holiday. It's VERY HARD to substitute people who've worked together for years and know the place inside out... The people who remain are experienced enough and good natured but have to work much harder than usual to try to cover the gaps that unavoidably appear. You had a new waiter, DAVID, whose skills are good but who was not up to speed about being here or well enough trained about the menu. Clearly he shouldn't really have been on a shift unless it had been alongside two more experienced people and on Saturday there was only one other. When one person gets serving on the bar and the other is adrift serving food without the knowledge then disaster can strike and did. Apologies. Sorry you don't like the loos and sorry there were no towels. SORRY. I can't say I agree they are grotty but at the same time will admit I've never been able to afford to get them up to the standard of decor I'd really like them to be at. That's a long story and stretches back sixteen years and includes setting up the Fair Pint Campaign which lobbies government to make the Beer Tie, which takes most of our profits and those of the majority of pubs, illegal. Lack of paper towels was an oversight of the inexcusable kind. Did you mention the missing paper towels by any chance? Once oversight happens it remains so and nothing is done about it until it's pointed out. The communication about the food, and the children's size availability, is inexcusable except as above - no one should be let loose on customers like that until they know the menu inside out, for their own or customers' or our reputation's sake. We're human and we make mistakes, I hate it, but that's the way it is when you're short staffed. I will apologise to David and to Stephanie for allowing this to happen. The merlot. If it wasn't good - as you indicate - Stephanie should have offered to change the drink. She didn't, I'll find out why not. What Stephanie told you about the wine IS true though. The merlot, as with all our wines, is really good for the price. I rarely find wine even close to as good as ours in other places even when it's MUCH more expensive by the glass or bottle. Try Grand Union, Victoria, Bishop - basically almost anywhere else and you'll be paying anything from 50p - 1.20p more per glass for stuff not as good. Sometimes I'm amazed at how cheap, I mean good value, we are. I've got great relationships with small suppliers; get the best prices possible - by consent not by threat or horsetrading - we sell a lot of wine - and pass the benefit of these relationships onto our customers. Enough. Just now, during this post, I overhear a customer telling their waiter that the food was great and is service included? Why not consider giving us a try again, happily on the house? Send me a PM and we can arrange a return visit if you care to take up the offer. Hopefully we can compensate you fairly for the failings you experienced. By the way we're doing live music at The Sun and Doves every Monday night from now on at 8pm with Dan Spanner's big band 8pm and coincidentally for brass in Camberwell tonight Big Ass Brass are playing The Crypt under St Giles Church: www.camberwellcrypt.com And thanks to those of you who posted more positively.

You are not alone newgirl. I'd like Southwark to try and prove that 95% satisfaction figure. From anecdotal experience of almost everyone I know with children across two primary schools 95% sounds like total baloney.

Leave two ?50 notes there next time and see what happens.

Collectively we are to blame for the utter baleful nonsense of our eduction system. We allow it to happen. Education is simply not a high enough priority in our national consciousness. This stupid lottery system that fails so many people is the result of a perennial endemic neglect of education as a basic priority in our lives. Consider just how BAD this situation is right now and then Imagine where we would be if Labour had not pumped all that money and energy into those Foundation schools and Academies in Southwark and Lambeth over the last ten years? Imagine that! Imagine where we would be now. For 2011 entry my eldest son had listed in order of priority: Kingsdale Haberdashers London Nautical City of London Academy Charter Walworth Academy Pimlico was in there somewhere as an ambition but we were told categorically that NO ONE from SE5 would get in. Not like two years ago. He also made a particular request that he would not consider any faith school. Instead he has been offered a place at St Thomas the Apostle, an all boys' Catholic school. And a not very good school either. IF he DESPERATELY WANTED to go to a faith school that had good achievements he would simply NEVER get in - he has never attended church, is atheist, his parents do not attend church - and so on. He would not be considered for entry, ever. We could accept an offer for a place in a poor secular school just as a matter of disappointment and general unjustness of a lottery system but the hypocrisy double standards and downright transparent stupidity of a place in a Roman Catholic, all boys' school to be made available, is just repugnant and deeply offensive - to those of faith as well as those of us who are humanist. Parental, or child, choice. Stupid.

Just resurrecting this thread as a cheerful anecdote really. For 2011 entry my eldest son had listed in order of priority: Kingsdale Haberdashers London Nautical City of London Academy Charter Walworth Academy Pimlico was in there somewhere as an ambition but we were told categorically that NO ONE from SE5 would get in. Not like two years ago. He also made a particular request that he would not consider any faith school. Naturally he has been offered a place at St Thomas the Apostle, an all boys' Catholic school. Parental, or child, choice. Stupid.

The lease owners of the Vale were desperate to sell it. But not at any price. They wanted ?600K three years ago - for the lease, not for the freehold. If what I heard today is accurate, it was worth their waiting. JDW is a stale mate for the Vale, even if they revert to the Cherry Tree name, which would be an improvement in itself, that pub is a fantastic site and it could easily have become one of the best pubs in London. The price overvalued the business by at least ?300K and was far too high for any creative outfit to take it on.

Watch the Vale reach its true potential as a Wetherpoons. That'll be a good night out for once.

I have it on good authority that the sale of the Vale to JD Wetherspoon has taken place and the existing staff are laid off as of today. The pub was totally crap under the previous licensees tenure but whatever, East Dulwich didn't deserve this fate.

I heard it was a young woman. Two people I know were caught up by this. One on a bus going toward Oval said he did not realize how much blood the human body contains. Very sad. http://bit.ly/aDd1jn

Yeah. Fireworks - Tories trying to distract us plebs from the cliff edge we're all going to fall over when the recession bites even deeper.

Where did this Wetherspoon 'news' come from? Id this rumour or fact? Would JDW be buying the lease from the incumbent leaseholder or buying the freehold from the landlord above them? Either way there are a considerable financial penalties likely to any incoming purchaser with an eye on the site like JDW. Wellington Pub Company wouldn't want or need to sell the freehold unless there is a massive premium in it for them - i.e. a sale well over book value and then Wetherspoon would have to buy out the incumbent lessee and, at a wild guess, I'd imagine they'd find themselves in a situation where, because it's JDW a humdinger of a price would be demanded and stubbornly stuck to. They'd be paying through the nose twice and that doesn't make commercial sense. Whatever. If it's more than rumour that pub going to JDW or Pizza Express would be doing the site a disservice and not be what's best for it. Chains are not best for ED and JDW is boring and dull and not needed in such a location. A Pizza Express in ED would go down well I'm sure but frankly an independent with far better pizza would be MUCH better for the area in general.

Just in case you don't know: It will be FUN!

The George Canning is totally comprehensively SHUT. It's a simple story of the rent and beer prices being too high. The odd bit of poor service besmirches all places once in a while and isn't necessarily representative of the norm. I;ve had some great times there and some really good food, as well as some dodgy experiences which, unfortunately I know is sometimes what customers at my pub encounter - HORROR - most of the time we get it half way right though. IF you're interested in the underlying reasons why so many pubs are SHUT these days, have a look at the Fair Pint Campaign website www.fairpint.org.uk which Steve, the former owner of the George Cannning and I set up with six other publican licensee people in May 2008. PS my pub (I own the Albatross Lease) is Sun and Doves in Coldharbour Lane, Not just a punter. Have a degree of knowledge about the dirty laundry of the subject of the pubco tie and Steve i s one of my closest friends...

Who's HonaloochieB? Who's Ham Fisted Harry? Please? Been missing out.

Ed and Frank - Frank's the man... They are very nice, friendly people. It's well worth a couple of visits when the weather's warm and still. Now that I've discovered how to put a pic on here I might come back and spam it with loads more.

A friend, Rachel, has just been to Romeo Jones in Dulwich and says they do the BEST COFFEE in London. She didn't mention sockets. My place, The Sun and Doves, www.sunanddoves.co.uk has sockets all over the show, free wifi and pretty great coffee and tea too. And a great summer garden which even has a non smoking area but we're on the wrong side of the tracks chaps.

Update This past week Fair Pint has moved from the national trade press into the mainstream. A mention in the Telegraph and two half pages in Evening Standard by Simon English in the finance section: "New blow for pubs as MPs roll out a probe". The early day motion (EDM 1328) has fifty signatures now; Ted Tuppen, CEO of rather large PubCo Enterprise called the MPs who have signed the EDM 'moronic' when speaking to city analysts about three weeks ago. So I emailed them all to point out his wise words. Three licensees and several people who live in the Camberwell / E Dulwich bounds are responsible for this, quite frankly, historic campaign. Oh yes and the Business Enterprise Committee has announced that it will re-investigate the PubCos this Autumn. Have you ever tried to 'roll out a probe?' Ooh er missus.

I saw this and could not help but think of THIS

That's not a conspiracy. It's definitely happening.

Can't argue with you Pekhamgatecrasher - a head is an aesthetically and texturally pleasing part of a beer. The debate about what should be a standard beer measure that rears up every few years in the pub trade press. The last time people were pontificating at exceeding length about weights and measures and what is a pint and when is a pint not a pint and how drinkers in the Midlands demand a pint to the brim without a head and those in the north demand a head above a pint line in an 'ovesrsize' glass and how those in the south are more demanding and and and... and whether beer tastes better with or without a head. Drivel. I contributed to this debate by pointing out how simple it is and that we should be using metric measures and glasses should have a line at the right measure with room for a head above the line. That got ridiculed out pretty quick.

Lozzyloz you're spot on too - you clearly know your stuff. If you're in the trade perhaps you might like to get together with Steve and me and bring an end to the whole thing. David V Goliath you know. We need as much solid evidence of interesting practice on the part of PubCo's as possible. We already have a FACEBOOK CAUSE Pub Landlords v the Giant PubCo's with just over 200 people on it. WE have some very interesting things going on behind the scenes too. And it gets even more complicated as everything in the PubCo business is all about volume - the more volume they shift in publicans' direction the better, whether it's sold or just goes down the drain, because the rent they want is calculated to be 50% of the net profit of a pub after office overheads are taken into account. So if glasses make it easy to over pour what matter? The publican pays for it. When calculating projected profit & loss projections for pubs the PubCos already know what true current barrelage is - because they've sold that beer to the pub through the tie and usually they will have flow meters on the dispense equipment in the cellar to make sure that every pint is recorded just in case beer is being bought out of tie. In their projections they always assume that a pub's volume of beer sales will go up year on year - even when the market is proven to be shrinking - and the PubCos never include Ullage (beer that is spilt, spoiled or lost through changing barrels and line cleaning), the gas needed to pump that beer to the bar, in their projected income calculations because all that would reduce the projected profitability of the 'unit'. Another unspoken thing in the background about pint measures is Yield, Pub Companies expect people who pour beer for a living to get a 105% yield from a pint. This means if they sell me a barrel (36 gallons) of beer they would expect me to actually earn more than a barrel's worth of cash out of that barrel by underserving through a combination of the head making up the volume and just selling less than a pint every time a glass is put under the tap.

Wheyhey Good post Steve, the closest I've ever seen to a perfect summation of the nonsense that is Pubs in England. To add to this a little InnSight from my own experience: Did you ever wonder what a 'Free House' is? Well, now you've read Steve's post, put two and two together and you'll get to this: A Free House is NOT Tied. A Free House can buy beer from whoever they want - whatever beer they choose, and negotiate prices with the supplier; and get support from the supplier; free stock, marketing and promotional material, loans, business support, training, all sorts of stuff. When you're tied none of the above applies; you pay much more for your beer, you have a limited choice (at least in my PubCo case (my place is The Sun and Doves in Camberwell)) and have to fight extremely aggressive rent reviews every five years. Typically they go for trying to double or more the rent you're paying - that's happened twice to me. For anyone interested there are two edifying threads on the Morning Advertiser (an important industry publication, the other being The Publican) website which show the depth of feeling that pub lessees have about this major issue that affects us all, punters and publicans alike: HERE and HERE. You will be interested to know there's a chap called Wayne Massey there who's going out of business right now. And several others who've been in the trade only a short time who are experienceing major financial difficulties because if the circumstances Steve outlines above.

Pretending to be planning for new year's eve from the mothership.

Sprout game?

CPT - what's happening to it? The 49p vs ?1.20 factor?