Otta

Greengod Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I'm in a 1 bed and pay ?105 a month for gas and > electric. ?60 is the gas ?45 electric. I > think it's allot but they take meter readings so > it is what it is. I'm on the cheapest edf blue > plan. Fixed till April 2014. I have gas > central heating and combi boiler. I'm going to > try shower more than bathing and use heating less > to try get it down as seems allot for single > person in a 1 bed. That does seem a lot, we pay that for a 3 bed house, and we cook and heat with gas. I signed up for one of those fixed rate deals until some time next year, at which point we'll probably get stung.

Mick Mac Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Otta Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > Not shaking Terry's hand is totally > > understandable, but Ferdinand has hardly > coverqed > > himself in glory by snubbing Cole. Silly move. > > > Not sure I agree with that Otta (again). It's one > thing with Terry being racist but a bigger issue > with Cole. Fair enough, so explain why. I'm not that up on this story, but from what I've read and heard Cole didn't say anything to dispute Ferdinand's account other than that he didn't hear it.

ratty Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Bunch of pricks - all of them! And on that note I think this thread should close. A fine summary and not much else to say!

Not shaking Terry's hand is totally understandable, but Ferdinand has hardly covered himself in glory by snubbing Cole. Silly move.

Really? You do like to look for a row sometimes don't you. EDIT for predictive text reasons.

He's no more a money grabber than any other premier league player. What would you have him do, say "no thanks, you keep the money". Obviously he's a wealthy man, and I'm not saying he has a hard life. I am just saying that as a player I feel for him as I'm sure he'd much rather have been fit over the years and played a lot more games.

Absolutely, and please don't think for a second I'm suggesting that the Hillsborough fans were behaving like the Heysel fans. It makes me laugh when I hear some people saying "Heysel wouldn't have happened if it had been a decent stadium". Well yes, but the wall wouldn't have fallen down if you hadn't rushed it you moron!

What has been proved is that the police royally fucked up, and that stories of robbing the dead ect were bollocks. What we don't know, is how a lot of the fans outside the ground at say 2:50 were behaving. Why does everything have to be black or white, either it was all the police's fault, or it was all the fans' fault? No, the Police were at fault, that is absolute fact. That doesn't mean that all the fans were behaving themselves. I really don't want to upset anyone, and last night I said I'd keep quiet, but I don't understand why everyone is taking offence from what Huguenot is saying. He is not denying anything that was revealed yesterday, or suggesting that any of the stories The Sun printed about the Liverpool fans were true. He is simply saying (and I agree) that it is unlikely the police didn't have their hands pretty full that day. I actually feel sorry for the average low ranking bobby who was there that day. It must have been absolute hell for all of them, and now they are being demonised, whereas I'm sure a lot of them did their best. It's not like they stood there thinking "let them all die".

I bought a PC in the New X gate Curry's about a year ago. 6 months later when the monitor was playing up I found the staff very polite and helpful. They are not experts, but the shop isn't a specialist shop, and I don't really expect them to be experts. They are sales assistants, same as you find in any high street shop. I suspect the staff in Gap, Top Shop, or Next are not fashion experts either.

He hasn't done bad, but I do still have some pity for him, I believe that given the choice of sitting on the bench, or the injury table and being paid a load of money, or being fit and playing for that money, he'd wish he could be fit and playing. A career that promised much more than it ended up giving.

I guess Camberwell was "cool" back in 2001 for a couple of years. East Dulwich has never really been "cool". "Cool" places tend to be really shit though, so happy to avoid. Also, the people that make a place "cool" (arty types usually) get priced out once the "cool" rep gets around, and they move on to make another place cool, whilst the area they've left just tries to remain "cool".

Fair enough, my bad. Was just getting in to thinking about it all, perhaps not the time.

Anyway, on another subject, I saw this comment on a BBC page about Michael Owen's move to Stoke, and it made me laugh "Good on Owen. Doing what is best for him and his career just like everyone else in this forum. Obviously the thicko brigade will say "yeh but he ain't loyal to us fans.". Well get a life and stop putting so much personal emotion and self esteem in the performance of a random, ever changing cluster of people who temporarily play for a business partially adorning the name of a town that may be near you."

DON'T mention 1. Buggies 2. Yummy Mummies 3. Kids in pubs 4. M&S / Waitrose 5. Anything before the year 2000 6. Supermarket meat For the first 6 months.

The Moos factor! Bringing East Dulwich back to Huguenot.

Top thread, I am making notes. Expect the return of Slosh soon...

Agree Mick, but to be fair, I don't think you can really compare the police force of today with that of the 80s, especially in that part of the country.

Cross post, I should know that Huguenot doesn't need me to explain his points.

I think what Huguenot is saying is that because of the headline and story in The Sun, Liverpool fans were quite understandably very defensive, as anyone would be over allegations like robbing the dead. Yesterday we saw absolute proof that there were errors and fault with police, with press reports and everything else. As a result, Liverpool fans can say they behaved impeccably on the day, and there was absolutely no fault on their part, and anyone who suggests otherwise will be subject to the wrath of a society. As Quids has very honestly said, it took these horrific disasters to wake a lot of people up to their behaviour. Anyone who thinks there were no Liverpool fans pushing and shoving and causing that crowd surge is living in a dream land. They couldn't have known what would happen, and of course the whole thing SHOULD have been avoided, or at least dealt with a lot better once it had started. But bad behaviour was at every football stadium in those days, there is no point suggesting otherwise.

"No one should have to wait 23 years to find out how one of their loved ones died." No argument there. "you can't help but feel massive empathy for them and want to support them in every way possible." Empathy and support are both good things!

Going back to Atticus' point about "moving on" (or not), you are quite right that had the families given up the fight, this information wouldn't have been released yesterday (it would have been available in 7 years time). But isn't it just possible that some of them would have found peace and enjoyed a better and happier life? I think of that poor woman (name escapes me right now) who died recently having never found out where Ian bloody Brady buried her son. Now I can totally understand why she never gave up, but it is a double tragedy that she never found peace in my opinion. The Hillsborough families will now (quite understandably) fight for legal justice, but it does make you wonder whether they will ever be able to stop fighting and find some peace.

Huguenot Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I'm not sure that anything I read in the report > was a revelation. Nothing particularly surprising in terms of who was at fault, but some of the details of the depth of the cover up (the altered police accounts) did surprise me a bit. Also the criticism of the ambulance service.

Chillaxed Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Sorry Otta, you can't apportion blame to all footy > fans on the one hand and then say you're not (in > some way) blaming the footy fans there that day on > the other. The latter is a subset of the forme El Pibe has already explained my post well enough, but just to clarify. Where any Liverpool fans there that day a bit pissed and lively? Quite possibly, maybe even probably. Were they responsible for anyone dying? Hell No! @ Atticus, has anyone ever actually called the families and friends of the victims "professional victims" If so, then that is wrong. What I personally find tasteless is the weird shared grief of people who had nothing to do with it. Respect the dead? Yes Support the families in their quest for the truth? Hell yes. Act like you've lost someone personally? Fuck off! That is my opinion. It means nothing in the grand scheme of things, but I won't apologise for it.

"But the truth should have been out years ago and the police and authorities tried to bury it. As for McKenzie, how he can look at himself in the mirror is beyond me, maggot." Absobloodylutely! He even came out last night saying the headline should have been "the lies", trying to paint himself as an inocent who'd been fed false information. The guy who had written the story claims that he never said any of it was fact, but allogations, and questioned McKenzie when he saw "The Truth" headline. Guess we'll never know whether that is true, and it's not surprising everyone is trying to save face now. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-19507065 Unsurprisingly the families are now talking about legal action, and I can't blame them. Will be interesting to see who ends up in court...

Been reading more and more stuff, and whilst it is absolutely inexcusable what happened that day, and in the days, months and years after, there should be a large portion of blame directed at anpother group. Had football fans of EVERY club, including Liverpool, not spent years fighting, robbing, smashing stuff up, and acting like general feckin morons, then grounds would never have felt the need to build pens, pitch invasion proof fences, and heard them in like animals. Of course that DOES NOT excuse any of the terrible mistakes made that day, but it's something you don't often hear mentioned, and I think the fans of that era, and indeed since, should look to themselves a bit too. And before someone like Atticus jumps down my throat, NO I AM NOT BLAMING THE FANS THAT WERE THERE THAT DAY!!!!!!