????

er, ????s doesn't and has never worked in the banking industry....prejudice and assumption from leftwingers shocker. One dimensional thinking about anyone who dares question the sacred cows of the left, no wonder reforms so impossible with such deeply entrenched small 'c' conservatism all over so called progrressive thinking. GET YER THINKING OUT OF ITS STRAITJACKET PEOPLE

1400

PS I also forgot to add woman taking timeout for childbirth rearing to my list of why private pensions are massively undercontributed as well

Ok. Deep breathe, Calm ;-) Of cousre, the problem IS private pensions but we can't bootstrap them up to PS levels, I just don't see how? With changing demographics and improved salaries, final salaries are pretty unworkable without bringing a company down in the long term. Private pension forecasts when they were launched in the 1980s were hugely out (yup thanks again Banks) they grossly over estimated Investment returns, and overstimated the actuary rates that would be available in the future. Currently ?100,000k of pension pot gets you about ?6k per year at 65...if you don't take any lump sum or leave any provisions for partners/kids. Private pensions are crap (unless you're Sir Fred et al) The only vague incentive is tax relief but that favours higher rate payers. Add to that the general populations financial idiocy and 20-30 somethings lack of understanding about what a private pension is and how it works as well as them paying off student debt then thery are not embarking on them and fr too litttle when they do. Add to this that most Private Sector workers flitt jobs a few times, employer contribution schemes are mixed and hardly ever touch the lower paid or self-employed obvioulsy then we are walking slowly into a massive, massive case of 60 somethings haves and have nots that I believe will cause enormous social pressure. I think I saw on the BBC thjat KMPG estimate the average private sector worker would have to put away 37% of their gross eranings to get the average Public Sector pension...now there's smoke and mirrors but I suspect directionally and scale wise this is about right. Anyway, My best two mates at Primary school. We were chatting about this at another mates 50th. Both left School at 15. One's been a brickie all his life, mainly self-employed. The other, went in the army at 15 did 20 years and then became a copper. When he hits 55, not far away. He'll get, I think a pension from Police and Army of about ?40K I maybbe wrong, but I think it's about that (I apprecite that these are very well Public Sector pensioned jobs, more than others, for understandable reasons and his army pension is completley non-contributory) my other mate, has 'a few grand in a private penison pot. in 5 tyears time my first mate isgoing to retire - do 'some security' for extra, go and see his family in oz and start drawing a tax payer funded pension until he dies. My brickie mate says he'll just have to carry on working until he's 66 for a miserly state pension plus, I'm guessing a private pension of about ?2k....during all that time, he'll be paying through his taxes for my army/copper mate in a sense. This, will happen more and more. Times have changed, demographics have changed, investments are crap, our society has changed....it's not unreasonable to ask Public Sector employees to accept this and make some, on my understanding relatively small sacrifices to and increased contributions to what are all state guranteed penisons, Many in the Labour Party accept this.

Of course I believe the vast majority of public sector workers, like the vast majority of Private Sector workers work hard. How dare you suggest I continually suggest say they are all 'malingering idlers', seriously take that smeer back NOW. Shall I go and tell my wife she's a malingering idler or my mum. I don't believe all of PS benefits are sustainable in the long term, no. That's my belief, I'm not alone. Doesn't mean I want to smash the welfare state and don't believe in fairness. I actually believe that the underwriting of PS pensions by general taxation is unfair on the vast majority of private sector employees (the majority of employees) who are on average wages, have massive job insecurity and inadequate private pension provision, Drawing room full of insults and lacking debate shocker...might as well make it the lounge. I think I can count the number of times I've acctually personally insulted people on the EDF on one hand despite my abrasive style, don't think I've ever slandered/slurred anyone else. and I'm certainly not arrogant enough to say I know what they think about fairness or 30% of the workforce based on my personal assumptions on their politics which I perceive as different to mine. I'm out. I'd like that apology. Nice debate...sacred cow.

Yeah nice contribution SJ - non debatable subject as per

Quids, your continued protrayal of public sector workers as malingering idlers who somehow don't deserve their pay and benefits is really getting irksome. I am not debating anything until you publically withdraw this smeer you sh1t

Drawing Room my ask when moderators bandy around assumptive insults in the Drawing Room. Cunt

Quids, your continued protrayal of public sector workers as malingering idlers who somehow don't deserve their pay and benefits is really getting irksome. Where? Seriously where? Always this. Attacking nurses, teachers etc. Nope. We can'T afford it and debate is stifled by your assumptions or the knee jerk reaction, Try and argue with Left Wingers impossible...slur and insult. Seriousl Fuck off Fairness for society? You've got a nerve - you couldn't give a shit about a fair society.....all you want is to see the public sector workforce decimated and for everyone to be in the same shit state. Your constant harping negativity is tiring me out, so god knows how it makes you feel. How dare you, seriously. I'm looking for av debate How the fuck do you know? Is anyone who oppses you wrong and selfish? Fook off with your insults you know nothing about what I think and believe, Fucking insults from a naive middle class lefty. How about a debate? Not interseted are you? I've had enough of your assumptions and insults. Fuck off, seriuolsy do one.

Ok. To move it away from the speckle wind up :)) and a more random Newspaper thread The Sun has heigher ABC1 readership than any single broadsheet - the steretypying of both Sun and Mail readers by the intelligensia (some of whom may be Guardian readers) is a bit....er.....thoughtless stereotyping. The two broadsheets I read the most are The Indie (daily) and The Guardian (mainly Saturdays but also once in a while in the week) The Guardian - DC's right, it is generally the Columnists that wind me up although selective reporting and the use of certain value laden words in news stories does too. I do find it smug, and the Readers letters are laughable (I know., I know) none of it excites me Lacey was alright for football in an old school way and a mate of mine was a Football reporter there since moved to, erm...The Telegraph. I get more annoyed reading the Guardian than say the Times, which is just dull. It's business/economics is crap and I used to find it a Too much of a Labour party sheet, especially when both parliamentary democracy and Civil Rights were being eroded at the height of New Labour. It's too affiliated and tied up with both the Public Sector and Labour Party for its readership and advertsing for my liking. For a paper that's tradition lies in true Liberalism it's got too tied into Labour for my liking. The Indie - I like it's range of columnists (Harrii and Yasmin excepted - the former needs counselling not a column), it's layout and Hamish McRae is the best economics/business reporter bar-non. I even like Burchill's polemic. Torygraph - I presume the Business, Sport and Crosswords are still top notch but the rest toooooo much? I also like the Spectator and New Yorker, on planes.

....all fairly common practice in Private Sector, with generally far, far less job security (apologies for this point in your case Otta)

What is the difference between Ryan Giggs and Ed Milliband ? One is a fading left winger who has upset his brother and is having a difficult time with the press. The other is a footballer

Saturday 1st October Palace away....in your diary chaps ;-)

Cardiff home :-S

did you "Just say no"?

In before Frankito saying "I hope they make it a WH Smiths"

yeah, and unsustaianble evergrowing PS pension liabilities will take a further chunk out of spending on actual Public Services in the future leading to further deteriotaion unless some sensible and pragmatic reforms are made to pensions, rurther widening gaps between rich and poor, not least t=those private sector workers (the majority) with no or grossly inadequate private pension provision. Plus, I don't think teachers should strike as a matter of professional ethics.

How long are the PS Unions and many, not all, PS Workers going to continue to defy economic reality and when it comes down to it principles of fairness for society as whole on this issue?

...The Mash

...anyway, fixture list later today :)-D

Rapture

...mine is honestly calling myself ????, this was sheer laziness and a lack of imagination, honestly. The problem is, it has meant that people have tended stereotype me as Guardian hating, banker apologist, economically dry, Labour bashing polemecist from day 1 :'(

I'm pleased with both his recent signings to be honest....Parker to Spuds though, noooooooooooooooooooo

Er, actually got Donald at 20...and that's looking poor now. Was going to do Frankel but 1/3 on NO WAY... ...anyone seen mick?

100...oh, sorry