????

I think the stuff that happened in the ground has been pretty overplayed - yes of course pitch invasions are wrong and we'll get the book thrown at us but actual violence or just a load of idiots, including some embarrasingly fat ones, running on the pitch and then not knowing what to do...may look dramatic but actually not much 'violence' and I haven't heard much reference tio the fact that most of the ground was booing the idiots and chanting "off, off" which you can just about hear on the coverage clips. Outside a different matter - I think it's intersting that the bloke who got stabbed and the other one in hospital are both in their 40s, this game like all the big needle derbys does bring out a load of pond life who have stopped going (BTW The fact thet I'm in my 40s and this was my first game this year is just coincidental!) There's a player on the pitch whose dad died on Sunday and I think one of the Millwall players is struggling against testicular cancer - those are the proper challenges that people face not acting like you're an extra in a pathetic hooligan film

outside not so good, in the ground nothing really just a load of pissed twats who will get bans

I think we'll get chucked out....and deserve it.

I'm back safe and sound, via the west end rather than jubilee....oh dear, that was a blast from the past

Sod the Premiership...only a few hours until Millwall

Macroban In terms of the data, I think the source generally quoted is the CIPD ,which I believe is largely based on survey data returned from HR departments in the public and private sector. This is I'm sure robsutsly and professionally collected put together and put to scrutiny. The CIPD is a well respected professional body and the findings of their annual report on sickness are widely accepted by most, including the authors of this report mentioned in the original post.

Cripes - I've just read through all of this again and can see what a jumble of arguments and a mess this thread is. In honesty I think there are several strands going on and I think that the direction the thread took yesterday was not helpful either.... as we all now seem to have agreed and subsequently calmed down. I'm not sure wether to address this from my perspective or get back on specifics. I think it is the threads ambiguity and subject matter that perhaps makes this a bit of a jumble - both the thread and what I'm going to add now! This is WIP. 1) The OP was specifically focussed around a specific issue - the report in the Times, which much of the initial reponse focussed on, however I think the poster's intention was using this as an 'example' of possible Public Sector inefficincies intended for a wider debate. Please correct me if I'm wrong MrB but that's how I read it. Certainly the 'critics' on this thread - MrB, Myself, TLS earlier on, have quite often stressed we are talking PUBLIC Sector - and back room functions - whereas the 'defenders' have focussed almost solely on the NHS (largely reflecting both their experience/careers), front room staff and the contents of the report. An unfortunate ambiguity. 2) The OP was also somewhat provocatively worded/labelled etc and I can understand why initial reactions were like they were and with hindsight I think MrB made a mistake with that provocative position which he has tried on several posts to diffuse. Unfortunately this set the tone for the thread, which is a pity as the general subject matter is important but potentially thorny and emotive (for all of us) so we would have been better, again with hindsight, to have had a clear less leading theme to 'debate' So we are left with several different debates going on, and again I think the debate is slightly different depending on wether we are talking the NHS or the Public Sector in general 1) Does the Pub. S take more sickness than the Private? if so, 2) Does that actually matter? 3) Why are they different? 4)If we think they matter, what can be done to make them better...(including the possibilty to get the Private Sector to take a more public sector approach to sickness/recovery) It's late, i'm tired I have views on all of these and many of them have been covered by many solid contributions from ALL of us so shall we try and get some clarity and continue with this as a proper drawing room discussion or let this one go?

...and on topic, the ever wonderful Tayaab (sp?) and Mooro on Exmouth Market

MoP is the Michael Winner of the EDF.;-)

And Millwall soon out of the cup.....

Sean - thanks for the clarification and I do accept now that your intention was not to attribute those comments, it didn't feel like it before so I am glad that you've cleared it up. I know that you care about this a lot and hence your perhaps slightly over-vitriolic response to Mr Ben and myself..believe it or not I do care too. My families health, education and generall well being are in the hands of many dedicated, hardworking individuals many of whom make huge sacrifices of time, financial reward and for little thanks....that doesn't mean that we, all of us, everyone, including people who don't work in the Public Sector can't ask questions about finance, reward and how ALL OF OUR collective money is being spent. Sometimes it does feels like we can't without an immediate emotional knee-jerk "Nurse hater/teacher basher" type reaction from some - although interestingly that is not what we have got from those who do actually work in the Public Sector on this thread. Rather than answer in a one off the top of my head style I'm going to have a think on the many interesting points raised by the likes of Anna, LuLu and you earlier Sean (and others) and will come back with something (probably some agreement and some questions) but I now need to now stop skiviing and get on with some work!

I think if the economy starts to grow with ant convincing momentum you could well be right

...by the end of 2011 to clarify

For sure they'll go up as they almost can't go any lower and they are at the lowest they've ever been, so the question is when and how far...I don't think looking at the last recession (or indeed the one before that) is much good as an indication of rate underlying inflation was at a considerably higer rate then . The economy is extremley fragile and households and companies still enormously indebted and a major hike would be catastrophic...and yet because of the state of the public finances and our overall economy the pound has weakened considerably, which is itself inflationary...a susatined run on the pound may result in interest rates having to go up quickly and that would be potentially disatrous, so whilst we are still on the edge of disaster, and I think we are still, the government will try and keep interest rates as low as possible for as long as possible...way into next year if they can, but "events dear boy events". Moving upward from April is my guess....up to 6ish% by 2011

Oz at 6s for the series BTW, not this test

Had a good day.... Had Oz at 6s after they lost at Lord's......on Friday lunch England were 8s so bet that!!! Then last night the draw was 15/1....never ever going to happen with the weather forecast and 6 sessions remaining there was always going to be a result so I laid everything that I could on Betfair,,,a little bit of a squeaky bum bet as it would have wiped me out but I like to think I'd have done it with 10x the amount if I'd had that in my account as it was a no brainer...

Thank you that is less offensive.... I've just read back through all my posts I don't think I have addressed all the posters replies by any means and, as it happens, I was taking on much of what they said and thinking about some sort of reply ....as I indeed said on my post late on Friday. Look if you want. I also initially spoke about 'my prejudice and anectdotal experience' way back on my first post on this thread I was (and have) hoping to achieve some greater understanding of this through debate (NOT argument)despite what you seem to think I don't have an agenda just some still held 'prejudice' that the Public Sector could and should be run more efficiently and we (all of us) as users and tax payers should aspire to this - as indeed most of the PS employees on here have indicated they do too. We also need to as, going forward, our public spending looks unsustainable with current conditions and attitudes towards taxation. I have on several occasions tried to defuse a mixture of cross-posting and misunderstanding on everyones part....including mine as I have been generally been thinking Public Sector per se rather than the NHS. I was hoping to post some of my thoughts when I'd had a bit of time including some hunble pie about I'd except my 'views' were perhaps shaped a few years back.....but then you stepped in I cannot honestly see any justification for your post about - - I pay your 'wages love', - having an agenda ".but you and MrBen have piled in with "where's my money you slaaaaaags" type debate - accusing the NHS staff of skiving ..I can post polemic and do the bar room stuff...I don't genuinely see where I've done that here, and thought the Drawing Room was meant to be a bit above all that and I think you've bought it down to the bar room on this occasion if I'm honest Finally... One final point - when you say "don't put up unpleasant made up verbatims such as "I pay your wages love" into your replies" - trust me that isn't my opinion alone. I received several replies from NHS staff thanking me for pointing out that obviousness - (not aimed at you btw - MrBen is as, if not more, culpable) - but that subtext was noted by several people. if you didn't mean it, by all means clarify - but don't pin the shock on me I think that suggest a little bit of paranoia on all of their/your parts it's certainly not explicit in my posts so it suggests...*prepares can of worms for opening*...a certain amount of defensiveness... the 'love' is a cheap aside as you are fully aware Sean, suggesting that anyone who asks is not only guilty of questioning the NHS but horrible sexist old pigs too....incidentally, of course all the male NHS employees are diamond anyway, maybe we should take this debate back to a debate which is where I felt it was sort of going at one stage....

Didn't they start like this last season..and the one before that? Shit, they only managed to put 2 past the Hoops

Sean that is truly laughable all of it......I so give in, I thought this was a drawing room for serious debate. "You are in mega denial that you have an agenda wherby you are accusing the NHS staff of skiving"...what a grossly simplistic, generalised and offensive statment to try and put in the mouth of anyone who dares ask some questions.....fairly straightforwardsly, without innuendo and certainly without the casual/sexist 'verbatims' your post assign to them......... you seem to have a lot of assumptions about me, my personality and politics which I find simplistic at best....I don't see any evidence for these on my posts here. I think you should look at your own prejudice towards people who don't hold your exact world view.

Well THAT made up for the football

Have you seen her handwriting?

The Daily Mail/Fox etc would be proud of your subtle smearing style .......argue don't put up unpleasant made up verbatims such as "I pay your wages love" into your replies.....I'd abhor that sentiment and have got NOWHERE near a staetment like that on this thread...

emotive and made up stuff again Sean, point out where any of my posts get anywhere near "where's my money you slags" please?....it clearly, really isn't possible to debate this with you if you Sean,seriously.

Well that's not true and a bit of a smear too really Sean - questioning how we all (all taxpayers public sector and private sector) have our money spent is nothing compared to racism, however provocatevily put by MrB and your kind of inference that it's a kind of a joke doesn't make that alright....you and I have form on people diasagreeing with your viewpoints kind of being smeared in a semi-lighthearted way, and I think you are guilty of this and it has got my back up before as you know - Daily Mail, pennypinching, beancounter etc.... and, as for 'less than accepted report', with the exception of Macroban, most of the public sector workers on here have explicitly or implicitly acknowledged that there is some discrepancy in rates of sickness between the Public and Private sector - it's really not a mickey mouse report and not even vaguely comparible with your 'black people are a bit dodgy' example. Come on, there is a needed debate here but apparently for you the NHS specifically but also the Public Sector IS a sacred cow.. ...the

Better than Sean..let's march on Downing Street 'cos we're crap - Bean I reckon ;-)