SeanMacGabhann

* I'm all talked out and welcome said beer * * Cheers Jonboy * (ponders irony of the neo-con bar's existence being due to a leftie's suggestion and smiles inwardly)

it's the vetting procedure which would worry me

"Jack Ryan (who else) is now President after a plane crash kills all the Executive. He knows nothing about politics per se and has no interest in its machinations." (unlike Tom Clancy ;-) ) Good to see humour creeping back in here as well.. right, pint anyone? A selection of bars are available in The Lounge to suit everyone's taste although there is room for a neo-con bunker on the market ;-)

Indeed Jonboy - both shareholders and customers ;-) Of course if we DID have the choice, it simply wouldn't exist. Enough people (ie those with the money that enables it to exist) would choose summat else. Game Over. Not for those people who chose to withdraw but those left behind. So even though you and I might not get anything out of it (I've paid in for 20 years and never once been for so much as a check-up) the knowledge that it exists, however imperfectly, for all those who need it, is... enough

Good comebacks jonboy and MM As ever most people want the same thing but disagree on how best it can be achieved. I can only imagine the pain involved Marmora, trying to turn around a culture as deeply entrenched. Such attitudes are not unknown even inthe most private of private sectors either it should be noted and I have my own scars from trying to improve working practices there. That said, healthcare doesn't lend itself so neatly to efficiency as does, say, banking and even there we can see a two tier structure If we take the high street banks versus the private banks as a parallel example. Private Banks offer tailored service to the clients (who obviously pay the premium) and would have pretty high satisfaction levels. High Street banking customers however (often of the same organisation as the private banks) have to make to with a much more generic template and as we all know, satisfaction levels are pretty low amongst customers The point I'm making is that the organisations in question already know about efficiencies, market-forces, customer-service etc - it's just not in their interest to spend enough on it to improve the levels of service for the average punter I'm not advocating nationalising them, or introducing legislation to change their ways - just illustrating that equipped with the full might and wealth of these brand-leaders doesn't really instill a customer-centric approach. Just enough is done to maintain (give or take) satisfactory levels of customers but the priority is shareholders

I hear you jonboy - either way you are sorted, but you have an obvious preference. Great. Now what would you suggest someone who earns below the level of taxation does (and hasn't made a contribution and can't afford the private care) And don't say get a better job - our relevant comfort-levels depends on those people earning below the taxation level* *Notwithstandng any recent tax-level changes which swooped a whole bunch of poor people into it's grasp

Marmora Man started the thread by expressing the expectation that a lively debate would ensue and it has (yay!) I like anyone with political views to (whether they chime with mine or not) be able to articulate them and support them, which MM has done since (yay!) DaveR and I even share the same taste in bars according to his recent post (yay!) But we seem to now be at a stage where, by even questioning the status quo, we get labelled as Trotskyites ( a very obvious.. Booooo!)

as deranged a representation of the opinions on here as I would have expected there JB Many of the people posting on this thread have supported the White Stuff opening However as a concerned fan of democracy yourself, there is nowt wrong with discussing the potential dangers of big business corrupting the democratic process is there?

DaveR - the debate has been going so well - no need to degenerate into yah boo sucks type language "The poorest people in a market-based democracy are invariably richer than the poorest in an equivalent authitarian state, and they know it. Slagging off market economics is a luxury availalbe only to developed world whingers" If we DO have the luxury of "slagging off market economics" - or as I would prefer to describe it "addressing the obvious problems affecting even the best run economy", then that doesn't mean we should ignore it. To address a specific point of MM's - namely: "I have worked in public and private healthcare sectors here and abroad and it is these experiences that have led to my absolute conviction that business does it better than government. I will admit that I make an assumption that what I have seen in healthcare translates across to education, but what I've learnt is that the 1960s / 1970s state education level of service, quality, ethos and expectation that I was fortunate enough to enjoy was not easily found for my two children over the last 10 years." This sounds suspiciously like someone who was never on the receiving end of the care in question. To reverse it - would I rather be a poor person needing medical care in the US or in the UK? Ok if you have money and are used to certain levels of comfort then the rough and tumble of the NHS might be an affront to your senses - but considering what it is providing to everyone it's a small price to pay IMO As for the 60s/70s ethos found in your education but not in your children's - is it not possible that the higher levels of taxation in that period meant a bigger fund for education, thus nurturing the staff and ethos you describe? I'm not saying that's the only factor but if the state ran a pretty good education system then, what's to stop it now?

JoeChuff - minority ? Looks like you are in the majority with the rest of us on the thread so far Come on MM - time for another post

ah but what will it say tomorrow! Here's hoping for a similar Sunday to last week

I think the reason the bun fight did not happen was the fact that "curry houses" have been a regular topic since the forum started and maybe some fatigue had set in. I think it has been said that a new bote for "best" will be happening soon tho

Parker's Folly - I would reverse the question - why should we NOT care what happens in Peckham? It's right next door to us - many of us visit it or travel through it every day. Many of us have friends there. etc etc As for the church question - I used to live in E12 where mosques were pletiful - and I would happily make the same joke. You are absolutely correct that people are entitled to do what they wish - but to make a general joke about a proliferation of churches of any denomination is hardly worth getting upset about is it? Of course, any establishment that exhorts me to "repent" or spend my time in eternal hell will always be the subject of my ire, be it in ED, Peckham or Baltimore.

Margarine is nigh-on indigestible - in my brain-washed years I had it on toast uncomplainingly but once I tried butter again I could no more do margarine than... well.. marmite

Heather and UC - there was a mini thread on chines takeways a while back with no-one really being outstanding. I don't recall Lamoon being mentions but I pass them daily on the bus and did wonder - cheers for the recommendation My only worry is that they may not deliver as far as the Upper East Side :(

Klaus put a big smile on my face before bedtime last night - cheers Mark A lovely wee cover version

I wouldn't say I grew up in a far flung place geographically, but Ireland inthe 70s was culturally Mars compared to England and I have never developed a taste for the stuff myself

Despite what I suspect is a major gap between our politics, this a very well constructed post you bring to the table MM. At time of writing I am the first reply but knowing this place I'll be on page 2 by the time I click post so most of arguments will be redundant - but, in order: 1) "Absolute minimum" is a fluid concept, no? But even by your list of minimums, you go beyond what many anti-nanny state campaigners would accept. To fold in point number 2, I personally am unconvinced of anywhere in the world where a tiny state exists and it's citizens live harmoniously but I am open to suggestions. Social Engineering is an emotive term which most of us would obviously be against but good government reflects the concerns of the many and can influence the remainder - that's called leading and is something we need more of IMO 3) To me this is the touches on the essence of human nature. In my experience (both as a customer and a close relative of start-up companies) a small business happens to know it's customers and it's employees and it's very reason for being in business beyond JUST making money. Inevitably as it grows it has to delegate much of this and at some point a tipping point is reached and no-one knows the customers, the employees or the raison d-etre of the teh whoel business - and doesn't care as long as money rolls in. If it doesn't roll in, then start doing a sideline and watch as the very people who liked what you were abandon you (see WH Smith, Boots etc) 4) Utterly against this. Nowhere does private care manage health services well (and once again the NHS is far from perfect but is still miles better than the meeeja would have us believe - again private companies denigrating something with the idea of getting it's hands on it perhaps?) As for education - let's all attend a school where we are all taught how to be good consumers (and yes I'm aware schools have already opened themselves to this accusation - thanks for that New Labour) 5) Agreed 100%

As I see it the difference is this: poor service is not illegal, so we are free to comment on it on this forum (ditto good service) breaking the law (eg disability lasws, or employment of temporary workers illegaly) is an accusation that needs evidence rather than a statement on a public forum where anyone could write anything I'm sure shopowners feel aggrieved if someone posts on here about poor service but there are plenty of forumites who are likely to provide balance if it's just conjecture

Polly D - is the C one bad for staining??? PM me the other one then please ;-) UC - good shout on Boots. I've been vaguely aware of something not feeling right anytime I've been in during the last year (not often these days as I work in Katherine's Dock) - but you can tell there is a lack of direction.

And still no word from our Tallin correspondant...

I know the one CWALD - and I was going to post the same earlier. Basil Fawlty has nothing on them TO avoid any lawsuit, this is not a matter of opinion - anyone can go in there and experience the same treatment. It's guaranteed

it doesnt show. . . good work on the dedication front as well

and we passed lounges status how long ago??

a job with the level of compensation, responsibility and challenge which requires the odd short-notice trip abroad is surely one which factors in the need to do so - ie you're already paid good money in a decent job People (temporary or not) on bare minimum wage should surely not be expected to do the same - that ?6 makes a big difference to your weekly budget if you are on minimum wage. PLus the reason they are being treated so badly is so that the likes of us on good money can enjoy our luxury juice/soap/whatever at lower prices.... doesn't make me feel good anyway...