Lowlander

Jeremy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > BNG, Canada Water is an example of another zone 2 > station (better connected) with loads of available > free car parking. Still, only a handful of people > use it for commuting. No free parking close by though - having just checked the shopping centre has a max 4 hour stay? There's loads of free parking round Peckham Rye station and that's arguably better connected

Hipsters? Shooting? They can barely light their hand-rolled American Spirit tobacco cigarettes in mild breeze and would shoot themselves in the foot just picking up a loaded gun.

Parkdrive Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Lowlander Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > aquarius moon Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > Lowlander Wrote: > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ----- > > > > If you cleaned up your own house first then > > > people > > > > might take you more seriously. Arguing > about > > > > foie-gras prodcuction when the milk in your > > tea > > > > comes from badly treated cows is a tad > > > > hypocritical. > > > > > > > > > Excuse me!! Who said I drink milk?! > > > > > > I actually drink my coffee black, only drink > > > herbal tea & when I do need milk, use > Oat/Rice > > > Dream. > > > It is full of vitamins & calcium, available > > from > > > all major supermarkets, is dairy free & > doesn't > > > come from cows! > > > > Good stuff! Glad to hear it. Just the quorn > ethic > > to get over, and I'll respect your opinion on > foie > > gras. Which would mean we agree in principle. > > > First of all Lowlander makes an assumption that > you drink milk, then after you put him right, he > posts a very patronising response. Keep going > aquarius, keep going and rise above the type of > assumptions made by the likes of Lowlander (he's > not alone in making sweeping generalistic > statements by the way). If the likes of you or > anyone else for that matter has a opinion which > certain posters don't like, don't be bullied by > them. This forum is not their property. Most of > them post while they're skiing or snow boarding, > because its so now darling. My post wasn't patronising. We're all making assumptions on this thread, and I admitted that mine was wrong. I made a mistake. And I posted an admission, because when the facts change, so does my thinking. So you can take your assumptions and stick them in your pipe and smoke them :-)

Many vegetarians are so because they care about the welfare of animals. Yet they drink mass produced milk from intensive farms or eat eggs from battery hens. Not their fault, but they pick on meat eaters and foie gras without considering the conditions the cows/hens they enjoy the products of. The solution is to eat free range eggs and ethically produced milk (e.g. organic, Guernsey, local types or no milk at all). If they do so, I'll accept their anti-foie-gras arguments. Otherwise they are rank hypocrites. PS, am happy to hear counter-arguments or corrections in good grac.

Following on from the foie gras threads, how many people can claim to be honestly vegetarian (i.e. no quorn, battery eggs, intensive dairy)? Is Jainism the only way, or is there an alternative for pure vegetarians as opposed to fake ones?

Depends on the person. If they look reasonable I may tell them to their face, if they look like they'll ignore me or kick the sh!t out of me, I'd tell the stewards.

aquarius moon Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Lowlander Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > If you cleaned up your own house first then > people > > might take you more seriously. Arguing about > > foie-gras prodcuction when the milk in your tea > > comes from badly treated cows is a tad > > hypocritical. > > > Excuse me!! Who said I drink milk?! > > I actually drink my coffee black, only drink > herbal tea & when I do need milk, use Oat/Rice > Dream. > It is full of vitamins & calcium, available from > all major supermarkets, is dairy free & doesn't > come from cows! Good stuff! Glad to hear it. Just the quorn ethic to get over, and I'll respect your opinion on foie gras. Which would mean we agree in principle.

Perhaps you are as ethical as you can be (quorn withstanding). Your fellow protagonists are not.

aquarius moon Wrote: > > > Not all of us spent our christmas morning stuffing > a poor turkey, so had plenty ot time to post on > here. Bet they had time to drink a cup of tea with un-ethically produced cow's milk though!

If you cleaned up your own house first then people might take you more seriously. Arguing about foie-gras prodcuction when the milk in your tea comes from badly treated cows is a tad hypocritical.

Parkdrive Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I never buy foie gras, and always buy organic, > unpasteurised milk from the farmers market. As I > see it, intensively reared cattle is, by scale at > least, far worse than foie gras. > > My question to you is - where do you get your milk > from, and are you aware of the welfare of the > animals involved? Why single out FG??? > > Well Lowlander, the name of the thread sort of > gives the game away. As for milk I drink lactose > free stuff as my body can't take lactose. So by your own admittance you buy milk that comes from dairys that keep cattle in unatural conditions, intensively reared, who live about half their normal lifespan? Where the calves are taken away and slaughtered at a young age, just so that you can have your milk? Charming. But it's your choice! Intensive dairy farming affects millions more cows than foie gras production affects geese. And don't come to me about milk being necessary, look to China, Japan and South-East Asia where (until recently) the consumption of dariy was virtually non-existant. Yet they have strong bones, teeth and in parts of Japan have fantastic life expectancy.

Parkdrive Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > As I've said before, this thread is/was about FG, > my disgust is not just about the eating of it but > the way its produced. If they're other foodstuffs > produced in equally shameful, abhorrent ways, I'll > back those that protest against such practices. I > rather hoped that rather than put down those who > despise FG producction, there would be more that > spoke against the way its " traditionally" > produced. All I see are those who wish to mock > anyone who puts forward an anti sentiment. I never buy foie gras, and always buy organic, unpasteurised milk from the farmers market. As I see it, intensively reared cattle is, by scale at least, far worse than foie gras. My question to you is - where do you get your milk from, and are you aware of the welfare of the animals involved? Why single out FG???

Parkdrive Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > Reverse snobbery, fcuk me so so wide of the mark > it beggars belief and avoids the fact that force > feeding animals is wrong. Regardless of whether > there are worse/better ways of rearing livestock, > force feeding is wrong. That is the nub of the > argument. By the way you seem to have assumed I > and others putting this argument forward and > veggies and/or Guardian readers by way of trying > to insult us. Just for the record I'm neither. My apologies to for inferring that this was down to reverse snobbery. I've made no comment on the Guardian until now but, for the record, am an occasional reader of that paper myself (in addition to most other serious newspapers). Personally, I don't eat foie-gras, but am asking for someone to explain why they feel it acceptable to (for example) drink milk from intensively reared cattle yet argue against foie gras? It would be nice if we could conduct this discussion in an amicable fashion.

Parkdrive Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > .... Incidentally I note that an > earlier post stated that there was no scientific > evidence to prove that force feeding was nore > distressing, painful or cruel that other farming > methods. Boiling lobster? Cattle producing your milk raised in their own faeces, penned in and their young taken away at a young age and slaughtered? And the survivors not living their full life? Battery hens producing vast amounts of eggs? Those three alone far, far outweigh any suffering caused by foie gras production

This reminds me of the free-range chicken vs battery chicken debate. You can get ethical Foie Gras. I I am mystified as to why many vegetarians on this thread will eat battery chicken/eggs and drink mass-produced milk / dairy products (google "intensive dairy farming"), both of which undeniably result in wider suffering to animals than foie-gras production. Finally, have a look at pork production in Denmark and other EU countries - also scandalous. Perhaps it's because Foie Gras and fox hunting are seen as being for the well-off and upper classes, so a form of reverse snobbery.

sweetgirl Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > gimme... if you don't drive any other road > vehicle you obviously will never know!! cyclists > CAN be very difficult to see, SOMETIMES they just > appear from nowhere! > > i think it is equally important for cyclists to > know & understand road rules. as a driver of a > much larger vehicle, i think for ALL road users, a > course should be designed which shows everyone the > view of the road & get a better understanding from > another road users eyes. > all it takes is a simulator designed course where > you would see the road through the eyes of a lorry > driver, for instance > by the way i drive a car also...... No-one appears from no-where. It's *always* down to a lack of concentration. I speak as a cyclits, pedestrian and driver (of large lorries, in the distant past).

Scotch whisky spelled without the "e" Can be divided up into four regions: Highland, Lowland, Speyside, Islay Islay ones are mostly peaty and not for beginners (only buy if you know he likes the style), other regions all good Would highly recommend one of the premium Ardbegs if he likes the Islay style (e.g. Serendipity at ~?100) Otherwise take a trip to the excellent Whisky Exchange beside Vineopolis in London Bridge, they'll sort you out

If you're a tube driver, and you pay your union dues in order to safeguard and increase your benefits, Bob Crow is delivering fantastic value for money. Not that I'm a fan...it's just an observation

I don't think you need to do that, Quorn's owners have plans to achieve ?1bn sales over the next decade from their current ?150m. The private equity owners aren't concerned with vegetarianism, just profit. Ethically, you'd be far better off buying meat from a small scale producer. Have a search on Google for quorn and allergy for some interesting reading. As someone who eats vegetarian at least 3 days a week (and who has spent some time being vegetarian in India) I really can't see the point in substitutes. Tofu produced from ethcially produced soy from SMBS foods and pulses are far more natural than fermented mould. Adn a damned sight cheaper.

Atticus Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > to suggest that drivers take less care around > cyclists with helmets is utter folly. I would ask > how you go about measuring this if I didn't think > it was such rubbish. Idiosyncratic at best. Err, the link I posted was to Bath University, so the research wasn't exactly carried out by some tinpot institution...

RosieH Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Lowlander, while I hate a hypocritical vegetarian > as much as the next man (probably more), some of > those links are old. Is the Quorn free range > situation still the same as 8 years ago? According > to Wikipedia, "by 2004 all Quorn products sold in > the UK were produced without battery eggs, earning > the Vegetarian Society's seal of approval". > > The people in glass houses point is valid, and > preachy preachers would do well to check that > their own house is in order before flecking my > face with psychotic spittle. > > But. > > But, but, but - on this, I think we're all pretty > much living in glass houses. We would all > probably do well to think a bit more about where > we're getting our stuff, and not turn a blind eye > to Bangladeshi factory workers burned alive > because we've seen the cutest little boots in > Primark and they're only ?15, or would buy > outdoor-reared pork but we've just blown the > budget on snowballs and eggnog so settle for > battery sausage. > > It shouldn't be a case of you sort your shit out > then I'll think about mine. It's Christmas, maybe > we can all be a little shit-sorty and make the > world a nicer place for our fellow manimals. Fair enough, I see that Quorn use free-range eggs now, I didn't realise. Still filthy stuff though. I eat less meat than I used to but it's all free-range or outdoor-bred now. So I spend the same as I always have. And merry Christmas to you too.

With newer cars sadly that's how much it costs - even for my '97 Volvo the cost is ?120 or so and only an official Volvo dealer can do it as they need to get the code from Sweden. Do take it into a key cutters and they'll be able to tell you if they can do it, there is a slim chance. Otherwise it's a case of phoning a number of Fiat dealers to find the cheapest. It may be that independent Fiat dealers can do it, as I believe the process varies by cars. Essentially the key has a chip in the plastic holder which is read by a reader in the keyhole (bit like an oyster card) and it that needs to be programmed to match the car.

The manufacturer of Quorn is Marlow Foods, a division of the multinational pharmaceutical giant Astra Zeneca, one of the dominant corporations in genetically engineered food. Quorn is made with non free-range eggs, produced in atrocious conditions: http://www.healthypages.co.uk/forum/vegetarian-vegan/4642-letter-quorn.html And if you eat quorn, are you aware that the company has been censored by the ASA http://www.thegrocer.co.uk/fmcg/fresh/fish/asa-finds-something-fishy-about-quorn-ad/227438.article And it's allegedly not good for you http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/aug/17/science.foodanddrink If you're a vegetarian concerned about animal welfare, you should look into the soy products you eat as most production destroys rainforest and their associated wildlife http://www.coconutresearchcenter.org/soy-deception-article.htm You might also want to avoid palm oil http://www.saynotopalmoil.com/palm-oil.php You might want to sort out your vegetarian ways first!

If you use train only it's cheap* If you use the bus it's cheap* If you use the tube/overground it's cheap* It's when you start to use combinations that it becomes expensive. I walk 40 minutes a day (20 each way) to and from the station; keeps me fit but also saves ~?500 a year *I use the word 'cheap' very loosely. Less expensive certainly.

EDdownunder Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > @ Lowlander, I understand why they are charging > more I just disagree with the logic and the > fairness of the current fair structure. You pay > the same for a weekly zone 1&2 if you use dlr, > tube, overground and NR all on the one day, and > likewise with price capping for zone travel. > > I believe that a single train journey payg should > be charged based on the zones of travel. If makes > no sense to discriminate against the payg > customers in this manner. How do you get from London Bridge to Shoreditch?