Louisa

SeanMacGabhann Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > > After you didn't come to the forum drinks at the > fourth time of asking I was so over you... Sean I cannot leave mr Louisa at home pining over me for more than ten minutes, and once I start drinking there is no end to it, but who knows I may turn up one of these days, who is say I have not already? > After the Somerfield staff thread I may have even > considered litigation More like constipation dear heart.. > Instead I spend my time hanging with Rodney King > talking about Officer Koon and concepts such as > irony ... I do that too, wow we have something in common! Louisa.

DPF, I can actually think of 4 Mexican restaurants in Bromley, all more expensive and better quality than the one along LL, and you cant actually park outside any of them! Oh dear, well off the mark again dear! Louisa.

Sean you know I am faithful to Le Moulin, why would I want to eat very basic Mexican cuisine at expensive prices when I can make it at home with an Uncle Ben's kit? (p.s are you in love with me?) Louisa.

I bet everyone else at carnival looks at MadWorld and giggles, I know I would! Louisa.

Cassius obviously never makes typos Tony, it must be to do with being a middle class do-gooder who has to be right all the time! Louisa.

When you need to go, you need to go, give the poor chap a break. Louisa.

I said : Posted by: Louisa Today, 08:54PM Great, somewhere to go and eat chilli con carne in gentrified surroundings, and probably be charged a few quid more than previously, lovely! Louisa. Louisa.

and me.. Louisa.

Great, somewhere to go and eat chilli con carne in gentrified surroundings, and probably be charged a few quid more than previously, lovely! Louisa.

I guess thats for me to know and everyone else to ponder Sean! Louisa.

You can shut your cakehole too. Louisa.

HonaloochieB Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- You think this is OK > just because... This person was stealing from someone and they were using force to hold them because perhaps, this person threatened violence. FOR THE UPTENTH TIME. MarmoraMan Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The only exception being defending myself, my family, my property from active criminal activity - and then >I subscribe to minimum force necessary. So the Somerfield staff to sum up could have been perfectly within their rights to defend themselves, their job role and their customers from active criminal activity by in their eyes subscribing to minimum force necessary (considering you do not know what this person was threatening or what they found on them). It works both ways MM, so therefore this entire thread is ridiculous. These staff members did what they thought necessary and this is not even out of court yet and YOU are telling people on a forum that staff members at Somerfield are heavy handed on potential criminals. Obsurd. What happened to democracy and the courts deciding? Need I say anymore? Louisa.

bigbadwolf, as much as I respect MM's judgement on what happened, I am not going to rely on that as enough evidence to find the staff at Somerfield guilty, and neither should you or anyone else. MM was not around for the entire incident and was not in posession of all the details, with the greatest deal of respect. Louisa.

No class has a monopoloy on rights and wrongs? Try telling the self righteous no it all do-gooding middle class people that then! They hyave a monopoly on politics and the legal system in this country which in turns means that they are the ones who set the agenda in the first bloody place! Are you suggesting Sean that aggression took place because it was the fault of the authority in this case? Why do you jump to the conclusion that the person being held and treated in such a way is in the right without knowing everything? Crime, Catch (hold with as much force as necessary if threatening behaviour is being exhibited, in this case who knows), Trial, Judgement!!! Louisa.

Not a criminal by the legal sense, but obviously this person was doing something wrong to be tackled by security staff in the first place so by accidently saying criminal (which I didnt mean to say) I was just indicating that the initial wrong act which caused the fraca in the first place for whatever reasons led to a situation where others were jumping to the aid of the person who was being dealt with by the relevant in store security without knowing all the facts, is that not as bad as me accidently suggesting this person was a criminal before being tried in court? Sean - the implication of what most posters have been suggesting on here is that the potential *criminal* gets the oppurtunity to have the upper hand without this having been dealt with by the relevant authorities! I have not twisted any arguments just stated my opinion and tried to stand up for reason in defence of the people who we all expect to have some legitimate authority to detain suspected criminals in Somerfield. I play the class card as you put it because it is what this all leads back to. Middle class do-gooders being judge and jury on the staff rather than thinking why on earth this person was being held in the first place? did they have a weapon? were they threatening violence? I just find your arguments ludicrous and insane to common sense Sean, as I do many others including Asset. Louisa.

Cassius where is the evidence to suggest more than 'reasonable force' was used? And even if it was, are we going to rely on the words of a couple of people who post on a message board rather than waiting to find the actual cause, surely this great legal system is in place to look at the CCTV footage as well as take witness statements. I am not going to accept that more than resonable force was used at this stage because WE DO NOT KNOW. This is what gets to me, the fact that we do not know all the evidence and people are already jumping to the conclusion that the criminal was in the right and the security staff were in the wrong, it is a mentality I find astonishing I have to be honest here. Louisa.

There is nothing wrong with too many estate agents, I for one would have been stuck with one crappy Foxtons valuation of my home otherwise and considering a house is the most important investment in most peoples lives it seems perfectly ok to me that we have a choice so that we can have a bit of competition. Lets face it, what would replace all these estate agents anyhow? Yet another boutique no one goes to? I'd rather look at bland pictures of an interior of a 2 bed flat than some poncy kitchen utensil I wouldnt dream of buying unless I had a screw loose. Louisa.

AcedOut, I think I have some very valid points here, class affects every aspect of day to day life. The gentrification and yummyfication of ED has gradually eroded traditional working class culture and therefore shoplifters who would once have been rightfully tackled if they were threatening people now find themselves put on a pedastal by do-gooder yummies with three wheeled prams popping into Somerfield to buy some organic corn flakes and to report innocent workers to the authorities for doing their job. It's astonishing the lengths these middle class people will go to destroy this area. Louisa.

SteveT accidents do happen and no one is perfect, but I think comparing some of the most horific historical crimes which were badly handled to a shoplifter is taking it a little too far. The police and others can only go on what they are given and I think it is dreadful that innocent people were put into prison and it is right and just that these people, such as Barry Geroeg, are given compensation and a chance to get back to a normal life. But let us not forget that in the case of Jill Dando her murderer is still out there to this day, her family cannot grieve properly without bringing this person(s) to justice, which is sadly looks like may never happen. Let us not forget those who are the victims in the first place, as I said about the shoplifter scenarios earlier. Louisa.

Asset Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Louisa Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Asset what a load of b*llox! The growth and > > acceptance of the 'underclass' in this country > is > > a result of an over friendly welfare state and > > do-gooder middle class people, like yourself, > who > > allow them to get away with murder(or > > shoplifting)!! > > > > Louisa. > > > But I thought you championed the WC Lousia. > I stated an 'underclass' created by people with views and opinions like yourself who work in government and legal institutions throughout this country. Working class people of the tradition I was brought up in did not steal despite the often awful conditions many of them lived in, they knew that they had to work to get themselves out of poverty. Your claim I know not of what I speak says an awful lot about your ignorance Asset. I've been there and seen how these people deal with things and I can assure you people like you just make it worse. But not to worry, carry on living in your own little middle class dreamland of utopian society where violence doesnt exist and criminals should be given double beds in prison and allowed to roam our streets taking from everyone else who works. Oh until something awful happens to you and then you change your tune. Louisa.

Asset what a load of b*llox! The growth and acceptance of the 'underclass' in this country is a result of an over friendly welfare state and do-gooder middle class people, like yourself, who allow them to get away with murder(or shoplifting)!! Louisa.

I think that this argument has become terribly predictable and obviously polarised. I note that working class people know what scum are and they know how devious they can be. I never stole as a child and my circumstances were far from perfect I can assure you, but I had a sense of pride installed from an early age that you have to work bloody hard for whatever you get, especially in a country so fixated with keeping the class system going, never allowing the lower classes to progress however hard they work, never quite being allowed into 'the club', unless you happen to be born into it of course. With the greatest deal of respect, I do appreciate what some people on here are saying about the rule of law and how violence breeds violence, but in my opinion this 'underclass' of people who have developed out of the welfare nanny state society we have been living in post 1945 have been given a free ride by the very people who want to install a sense of democracy and social cohesion in our 21st century society. The middle classes do not recognise the damage that they have done to our society as a whole through the legal system and cultural liberalism which has penetrated every aspect life. Louisa.

Sean, you may not be knowingly defending the rights of the criminal in your eyes, you may well think you are actually standing up for democracy and what you believe to be right in a democracy - but you fail to accept that by doing so you are immediately giving the original criminal back the emphasis to stand up on their high horse and view society with contempt for letting them get away with it - which based on my understanding and experience of the courts is exactly what will happen. I agree with James, the middle classes do take some sort of pride in standing up for rule of law (quite rightly), but nowadays they go a step too far by completely ignoring the causes of the incident in the first place, which was a shop lifter entering a shop and stealing. I cannot continue this conversation because it makes me angry, do-gooders never see things from another point of view hence why this country is ruled by a bunch of middle class liberals who do not take basic reasoning into account. Louisa.

HB, you are missing the point. MM has still not answered my question of whether or not he and others were present for long enough to see everything that happened and the reasons for it happening? We do not know all the facts (for the umtenth time!), so even if violence was not used the person may well have threatened violence verbally or signalled that they had some sort of weapon on them in which case more than "reasonable restraint" should be enforced to protect staff and customers. Louisa.

LondonVillageLifer, now I think you are the one who is making assumptions before knowing the facts. Making the potentially guilty party seem like a friendly rogue who just steals pack of streaky bacon. There is obviously more to this than we all know, so I reserve judgement for the courts, but I am afraid I have little faith in the legal system of this country. Recent cases including a young girl killed by a guy on a push bike who walked out of court with a fine, whilst a couple found guilty of an insurance scam (i think) were put inside for 6 years a piece! Is it any wonder people like me have sour grapes about the state of this country's legal system and why so many people feel it necessary to take the law into their own hands (rightly or wrongly). The views of certain people who like to make the criminal out to be hard done by sicken me the most, because they are the ones who are encouraging the social changes which go on to affect the legal system. Louisa.