Louisa

civilservant Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I couldn't say it better than Bob - Foxy, I think > he's right on this again > > Louisa, I hear what you're saying, and as you > know, I've been rather appalled at all the > talking-down to that you've been receiving in > recent days. > I'm really interested to hear you describe the > vote as an 'act of self-harm' by people who feel > that they don't have a stake in anything, and I > can see how that can be - but I could never agree > that it was the right result - just the sight of > Farage and his slimy opportunistic hanger-on is > enough to make one heave Civilservant, I personally feel that this vote was swung, in the end, by disaffected heartland Labour voters. Yes you had the usual crowd on the right who were upset about sovereignty snd control over economics. But my sense was that immigration would, amongst a whole host of complex and possibly even unrelated gripes in working class northern communities - be the ultimate decider. The EU has done many good things, but equally it has allowed open borders which rightly or wrongly in these poor communities, has created a scapegoat for all their collective disaffection. It would be wrong of me or anyone else to gloat about this result, because let's face it, it's going to be a tough road ahead and a long one at that. These communities will probably continue to bare the brunt of this result for a while too. My hope is, democracy will prevail, as will common sense. The Labour family MUST now listen to its heartlands, because if the metropolitan elite continue to ignore these people and their fears, or even worse act towards them with contempt, they will be like lemmings heading for the cliff. As will the party as a whole. Immigration fears are real and have changed communities, this must not continue to be ignored and not addressed. Louisa.

We made the right decision. I am happy, but not jubilant. I gave ample warning over many years on this forum, that out of touch London elites were refusing to acknowledge or understand various gripes in the poorest regions of England, mostly working class Labour cities and post-industrial communities which had been left behind and not listened to. They have now spoken, despite all the dire warnings sent to us from almost every expert doomsayer. There will be turmoil for some months, and yes in some ways it is an act of self harm, but we now need some positivity. I am not a fan out of PM, but one thing throughout this campaign he rammed home to us all "we are not quitters", and then the very next morning he resigns as PM. Cheers David. Louisa.

Not sure why, but in the last hour or so the markets have taken a bit of a jitter. The bookies are still overwhelmingly backing a remain vote, and last nights polls were fairly neck and neck. Can anyone explain if further info has come to light? Louisa.

You certainly aren't drinking alone. I'm on the Malbec, which considering the weather is quite unusual for me. Louisa.

Good to see long queues this morning outside various polling stations. Let's hope for the biggest turnout ever! Louisa.

Blah and rendelharris you have been great sparring partners in this debate (as has LM), and as the countdown to voting begins I would just like to thank you all for using your democratic right to debate and disagree with me, in a courteous and informative manner. I don't agree, but I've listened and taken note and respect you all deeply for your passion on this topic. As the thunder clouds gather over ED, two tribes are about to go to war, and once the dust settles at some point on Friday morning, let's hope thy regardless of the outcome, we can all agree to move on with whatever hand the British electorate have dealt us all. Louisa.

root Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > There should have been a new poster showing of the > greatest proponents for Brexit. "Gove, Farage, > Johnson, Duncan Smith, Galloway, Louisa" You missed out Foxy, root. I think it is fair to say that, most of the public faces for 'brexit' are odd-ball larger than life characters. But that doesn't mean that the likes of me aren't well rounded, rational, informative and largely diplomatic individuals. Louisa.

Blah Blah, with respect, that is nonsense. There are 46 nations who trade tariff free with the EU and do not have to accept any of the rules and regs surrounding free movement of labor. Yes, Norway and Switzerland do have to accept tariffs as part of the deal they achieved with the EU, but that's primarily because they are smaller nations on the periphery of the EU and those deals were tailored to suit the needs of both parties individually. The UK with a population of 60 odd million, would be in a similar position to the United States, India or Australia. None of which pay any tariffs on trade. Louisa.

LM Greece is far from perfect as a nation, and if anything to me it proves the failings of the EU and more especially the single currency. Nations with completely different cultural, economic and political constructs have inevitably failed to work together and the consequences of the single market are that its not the political classes who suffer, but the ordinary working people! Greece caused its own mess, but if it wasn't restricted by the EU it would be able to deal with that mess independently and possibly more successfully too. Louisa.

I do hope we can all be friends again after this. I mean, I would hate to think that our EDF Union of friendship and helpful co-operation comes to an abrupt end 😁 Louisa.

For goodness sakes LM it's a joke! Lighten up :) Louisa.

LM I am not trying to rationalise anything, I have stated my reasoning behind leaving many times and frankly it must be getting boring for those who don't give a toss either way. The EU will probably collapse at some stage whether we remain or not, no arrogance intended. It's just a failed/failing organisation for the reasons I've stayed and it is unsustainable. It's nothing about seeing myself as European or not. Do you think unemployed Greek 18-35 year olds will be worrying about if they're considered European or whether they can get a job? I personally think the latter is more important to them. I love Europe, I visit other EU states regularly, I enjoy produce from the continent, I shop in Lidl! It's not about nationalism for me at all. It's about democracy, and ta about sustainability. Louisa.

root Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > > So what you really want Louisa is to rewind the > clocks of Europe back to the 1950s. In the face > of global superstates like India, China, the US, > etc, reduce Europe to a bunch of loose dinky > insignificant democracies. Absolutely not root. What I want is for Europe to return to democracy, one in which Greece isn't threatened with economic sanctions and caught up in mass unemployment. A Europe in which Democracy is once again returned to the local rather than centralised, where decisions can be made for the interests of the many and not the few. No-one says if the EU collapses we can't still trade with each other. Everyone is talking about this market of 500 million people, what about the other market of 6 billion customers (eg the rest of the world?). Calling us loose insignificant democracies is missing the point entirely. Louisa.

Vote leave, and others will follow. Don't think of the short term, think of the long term. This is a decision which will galvanise one EU state after another to end this political experiment and democracy will re-establish itself across this continent once more. Louisa.

qouldnt it be ironic if the metropolitan ED elite got their M&S, and then we pulled out of Europe at a similar time. Given with one hand, taken away with another. Louisa.

I've solved it Sue. Some further research has revealed its going to be a Waitrose acquisition. Louisa.

Is it? Who is 'the bank'? Can't find any relevant info online Sue? Louisa.

Someone has taken on the old HSBC bank on the corner of Lordship Lane. But it's all hush hush at the moment, no details. Louisa.

Who is then? Who's taken it on? any chance Iceland could be returning to the lane? Or someone with some replacement cash points? Louisa.

If we leave the EU, we will once again be in charge of those waters, so we can regulate from our own parliament on who can fish them and to what quota levels. Personally, I think we should whack tariffs on other EU states fishing our waters for unique fish/crustations not found elsewhere in the EU. Some of the smallest family owned businesses have literally gone under due to over fishing from big Spanish/Portugese/French trawlers coming into our waters. They simply cannot compete. Louisa.

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/6092/the_eu_s_betrayal_of_britain_s_fishing_industry This article gives a good summary of the facts. Some countries, France for example, are incredibly protectionist of their treasured wine and cheese industries. We here in the UK have through the CFP (which ironically only came into force ONCE the UK joined the EU, wonder why?), have seen our treasured fishing industry allowed to be directly regulated by the EU. The decline has been dramatic, you only have to go to Whitby Bay or the various smaller ports across the UK coast to see the direct impact these policies have had. Anyone can come into our waters and fish to a certain quota for fish that once only our fishermen had access to. It's created unnecessary competition on our doorstep, and contributed to stock levels collapsing. Louisa.

No LM I am blaming the EU for allowing isolated communities to fall by the wayside by making internationalist decisions based on environmental and scientific findings, with absolutely nothing to repair or transform those communities to look for alternative replacement industries. Can you blame these people for feeling a bit upset? They're getting all this EU funding, shouldn't they be grateful for that? Louisa.

If you are a young person growing up in one of these isolated communities, you have no future. All the traditional industries you relied upon have now gone thanks to EU regulation, something we cannot control. Imagine growing up in one of these places with no future and no job prospects? Oh but it's ok because the EU is funding a regeneration project which involves rebuilding the town square, great. Louisa.

Here's a good example root. Fishing, and the 'common fisheries policy'. Not just in the UK, but across the EU, localised fishing communities have been left decimated by undemocratic decisions made far from home, by people who little to no understanding of the micro structure of a local economy and its reliance on one two particular industries. Parts of Cornwall and Devon are the biggest beneficiaries of EU funding, but despite this they remain some of the most anti-EU constituents in the whole UK. They've seen first hand the damage farming and agricultural decisions made abroad have marginalised their communities and left generations out of work. Unlike here in London, where one door closes and another opens up, these places do not have those options open to them. And I think, most would prefer to be in control of their local economies rather than live off handouts from the EU. Louisa.

I think the predictable swing back to the status quo is now happening. A repeat of the Scottish referendum. A narrow win for remain, but not convincingly enough to shut the brexit argument up forever. Louisa.