Louisa

Indeed Blah, 'the heir to Blair' once again proving himself to be a career minded political machine, reading from a memorised script. The man really is just too good at shouting people down with passive aggressive pomposity, I don't think he even knows he's doing it half the time. Louisa.

Cameron was predictably patronising and damn right rude tonight. He didn't address immigration once. And why with Corbyn saying on Andrew Marr this morning that we have no control over immigration inside the EU (truthful at least), the PM and Leader of Opposition have done the job for the leave camp today by just opening their mouths. Thanks. Louisa.

I always make a point of letting everyone know near me that they need to back off whilst I'm putting my pin in, and I won't hesitate to confront anyone standing too close for comfort. Winds me up no end when someone's breathing down your neck. Louisa.

I think considering recent tragic events, it would be wise to consider pushing the referendum date back a few extra weeks, out of respect and perhaps to bring the argument back to a more civil and courteous debate. But cancelling the referendum is entirely undemocratic, considering this Government were elected in part on a promise to hold this referendum. Louisa.

I've been trawling the planning applications site for any further updates and I've come across this one. planbuild.southwark.gov.uk:8190/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=externalDocuments&keyVal=_STHWR_DCAPR_9567043 It seems a new restaurant called 'Spinach London' will be taking on this site and presumably 'Le Chandelier' will be closing down? The new restaurant is a vegetable focused restaurant according to their Twitter account. https://mobile.twitter.com/spinachlondon Does that mean they're vegetarian/vegan? Not sure. Louisa.

Terrible news. Sympathy and support goes out to her family, especially the little ones who have sadly lost their mother at such a tender age. As yet no news on what the motivations of this individual were, so perhaps for now as a forum we should steer clear of anything political, out of respect and decency. Louisa.

I personally believe the long term consequences of remaining will be more dire than any risk posed by a short term shock. The EU is on borrowed time, and by leaving now we will save ourselves long term economic hardship once the Eurozone becomes unsustainable from consistent bailouts of economically weak nation states. Louisa.

The closest you'll get in this country is 'Abelour' single malt scotch whisky. It's 120 proof. It will blow your socks off, but at least it's drinkable and not something awful from the black market. Louisa.

LM - I think the difference between London and other regions is shear numbers. Some towns like Boston in Lincolnshire or Wishbech in Calbridgshire which already had small populations suddenly saw a large influx (relative to population size), and this had a negative effect on wage growth as competition rose for fewer jobs in predominantly low/semi skilled professions. Comparing London to those regions is almost impossible. You could easily lose 100k of people in this city and not even notice on the blink of an eye. In a population of just 10 or 20k the impact is far greater. Louisa.

Johnki where exactly are you in the UK? I only ask, because another interesting point I picked up on was that cities and towns with relatively low levels of EU immigration pre-2004, which has felt the pressures on infrastructure tended to be the ones where EU migrants had taken on significant numbers of low/semi skilled jobs in direct competition with the resident population. I think that perceived fear becoming reality in those poor regions allowed other poor and predominantly British citizen dominated towns and cities to fear they were next. Again it's all about perception, but people at the bottom of the pile are always feeling like they are about to suffer the consequences of decisions made way above their heads and they have zero say or control in the matter. It must be extremely frustrating if you had left school and was in full time work on a farm picking/harvesting fruit and veg and then one day you were laid off because the farmer decided they could employ people from elsewhere to do the same job on different terms (for example). Or you were not even able to get that manual job now because the competition was too high from elsewhere in the EU and you found yourself on the dole as a consequence. Louisa.

Not sure if anyone has had chance to watch the BBC2 show currently on "Britain & Europe: the immigration question"?, but it's been very interesting. When you compare London, a city which is hugely affluent in a general sense as well as being comfortable with the benefits of immigration, it's no wonder that the debate around this aspect of brexit becomes baffling to those middle class left of centre internationalists (many of whom are probably fortunate enough to own their own homes). But then you look just outside of the capital, and you see communities where low skilled UK workers are being forced to compete with others from inside the EU for those jobs, which in turn breeds resentment. The point was made by one commentator about how a wealthy London family benefit from hiring EU nannies at competitive wages, whilst out in the wider UK jobs ordinarily done by UK workers is now hugely wage competitive which is creating competition and forcing wages downwards. It's too easy to judge people from your ivory tower, but I beg of you to at least look at the bigger picture before you judge these people and accuse them of being bigots. Louisa.

Quids you hit the nail on the head above. In terms of home grown legislation we are one of the most outward looking and progressive nations in the EU, and it is frankly patronising to be told anyone who thinks we should leave it, is by nature a 'little Englander', it simply just isn't true. Makes for good sanctimonious headlines for the 'In' camp though. Louisa.

WM your summary of the pro's for remaining just a post before your last is a drop in the ocean of the total control the EU has over us. Do you honestly think it is correct that a sovereign nation state can be pulled into line by a distant and bureaucratic trading block without democratic consequences? You highlighted some of the positives, but they are a drop in the ocean, and despite them being overwhelmingly 'positive' areas of legislation - they are nonetheless overwhelmingly undemocratic in nature. I am fully aware of what the EU does do, and alongside the good things are a number of bad things. If you are happy to be dictated to be a super trading bloc then that's fine, I'm not. I think we can control those things better from the outside. And by suggesting someone who wants to take a stab in the dark is being be delusional and "should be ashamed" isn't winning me over. It's just reinforcing that nanny state 'we know best' aspect of the EU that those of us who want out hate so much. Louisa.

the remain campaign is so supportive of the dull and failing status quo. The more people explain all the virtues of the EU and all the finite detail, the more I switch off. I'm not overly interested in all the predicted consequences of brexit, because predictions is just what they are. It comes across as negative and totally unappealing to me and many others who just want to take back control again. Yes you can argue until the cows come home we won't actually get back control of immigration, sovereignty and the economy - but I think momentum has built behind just taking a stab in the dark - whether we sink or swim, its our future and our choice. Louisa.

LM - Control of the driving seat and the all important direction the car is headed in. Louisa.

Wales is statistically speaking one of the most Eurosceptic regions of the UK, and ironically according to the 2011 census has the smallest proportion of Other-EU citizens out of all regions. Scotland is without doubt pro-EU as is London, but pretty much the rest of the country (apart from the odd city here and there) is anti-EU (including Northern Ireland). Louisa.

For those of you bored by the back and forth, round and round like a carousel debating, take a look at this YouGov map of the UK. It tells us a lot about the most and least Eurosceptic regions. https://yougov.co.uk/yougov-8545/ Louisa.

root immigration from the rest of the world is already kept under control in this country. We simply allow in the people we feel will benefit the economy eg foreign students, nurses, doctors etc. By leaving the EU this will not change, all that will happen is that our former EU partners will have to join the rest of the world queue for entry into the UK. Don't see a problem with that personally. The red herring of accepting freedom of movement and Schengen has no foundation in fact whatsoever. Despite the constant use of Switzerland and Norway as examples of this. Louisa.

Every single current and former politician (including Blair), has admitted that immigration is not something we can control from inside the EU amongst member states, that's a fact. As long as we remain, and more people wish to come here than leave we will have a problem with infrastructure and housing stock. It's simple demand and supply stuff. People can bang the drum of 'it's our own parliament who have control over putting the investment in', but let's be realistic, successive government's have failed to do this. Once we leave, the pure demand and supply side will begin to re-balance itself, because if and when needed we can put a halt on inward migration with a simple act of parliament, and we let's say in the worst case scenario we forefeit some awful trading deals based around free movement of people as a result, so be it. Getting young people on the housing ladder (and even rental ladder in London) is far more important than any supposed economic losses associated with brexit (losses which no one on the remain side can prove or disprove anyway). Get that money invested in house building private and social, and also take the strain off the NHS. We have priorities far more pressing to worry about than whether or not the EU will gracefully provide us with a trading deal. Louisa.

LM, yes they would be our biggest trading partner by far (to begin with at least), and it would of course be in our interest to negotiate with them. But anyone who believes they have all aces in this game of poker is very much mistaken. Firstly, Germany would not want to lose us, regardless of what the rest of the trading bloc think. They are more than aware of our importance both to the EU as a contributory nation state and our value as a trading partner to them directly. Let's not kid ourselves, we all know the Germans are the most powerful nation in the EU and hold the balance of power. The EU may not have much choice come negotiations. The union is pretty flimsy as it is, and with the loss of the second largest economy I think the whole Union will be at risk of collapse or major reform at the very least. Who knows, Germans might decide to jump ship too. Our great pals the French can then take control of the EU. See how long that lasts! Louisa.

If the UK were to leave the EU we would account for 16% overall in terms of the export market, which would put us in either first or second place as the largest trading partner. Based on those figures on that website Blah, I have come to the conclusion that Germany would by far be the biggest loser inside the remainder of the EU. We are their third largest trading partner on a nation by nation basis, and they would lose 4.4% of exports. Not a poultry sum in the grand scheme of things, and considering they are the biggest net contributor to the EU they would not want to take such a big hit to their economy for the sake of not being flexible on free movement of people. Interestingly, our biggest trading partner on a nation by nation basis is the United States (as it is for Ireland too), no other EU countries are so reliant on American exports as we are. Louisa.

Also WM, our opt out of Schengen was not just as a consequence of EU membership, it was given to us because the EU knew only too well of our contributory importance to the union and didn't want us to leave, they would bend over backwards for us again if needed, and to be fair (by EU standards) already have in the recent negotiations Cameron claimed to have victoriously returned with. If the Swiss and Norwegians couldnt negotiate a deal on Schengen (despite the recent swiss referendum), it says more about their relative lack of importance to the EU in direct contract to us who they desperately do not want to leave (through gritted teeth or otherwise). Louisa.

LM and WM, whilst I accept the examples of Switzerland and Norway, and indeed agree that neither of them is able to negotiate above and beyond what they already have, my counter point would be that the UK is a completely different example. If we negotiated a trade deal with the EU, we would be the second largest market place that they would be dealing with away from the United States. We are the 5th largest economy in the world, you just can't compare Norway and Switzerland to us by any measure. They would not stop trading with such a large market place because we choose not to engage in free movement of people and/or Schengen. It just wouldn't happen! Who would cut off their nose to spite their face? (Granted the French may be tempted). Moreover, and a point largely ignored thus far, we are the second biggest contributory economy inside this trading bloc. If we leave it, the German economy would probably have jitters because it would be left to bankroll the majority of the economic contribution towards the EU, and then, in my personal opinion the whole thing would come crashing down like a pack of cards. Louisa.

There is absolutely no evidence that if the UK leaves the EU we would be under any obligation to accept Schengen. If we want trade deals and to stay in the EEA we would be able to negotiate free movement based on what sort of settlement we receive regarding trade. As others have said previously, the chances of the EU forcing us to accept freedom of movement as part of any deal on trade is ridiculous. We would be by far the largest market place on their doorstep with a substantial population. It would be an entirely different ball game to Swiss and Norweigan trading deals, which they seem very happy with anyway. Don't see either of them in a hurry to join the EU do you?. Louisa.

Latest polling suggests 10 point lead for leaving the EU. The largest lead yet, coupled with all other polling data also now showing a solid lead for the 'Out' campaign. But do we really trust polling data? Louisa.