Louisa

No problem rah, it's an emotive topic and it's easy to get carried away on either side of the argument with misinterpretation and such like. I agree that there are strands of xenophobia being whipped up by the right wing press, predictable and not very helpful in this debate. That of course as an aside shouldn't lead people to assume that everyone voting 'Out' is somehow a reactionary closet racist. I think somewhere in the middle is probably true, yes there are closet and openly racist people who want brexit for those reasons, but they are far outweighed by sensible people who have looked at the facts and figures and come to the conclusion that a return to national control over this matter will in one way or another bring those numbers down and create a fairer system, and in the process hopefully relieve the strain on housing and infrastructure. Louisa.

root Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Louisa Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Rah I don't believe at any point I have implied > > that. My point is that immigration does > > disproportionately impact upon working class > > communities more than others, and that those > > representing the 'Out' campaigns are not really > > reflective of that. I am not saying all working > > class people are anti-immigrant, and I do wish > you > > and other 'In' supporters would stop implying > that > > anyone who has a concern with this subject is > > somehow xenophobic or worse. You are skewing my > > side of the argument to fit into that box and > it > > is very misleading. I would equally argue not > all > > wealthy 'Out' Tories have economic control > reasons > > for wishing to leave. > > How exactly did EU immigration impact the working > class? Are you saying that, a school leaver with > no skills or qualifications to speak of from > Rochdale hoping for a job flipping burgers is put > in the unfair position of having that job filled > by sonmeone, say, from Poland? I've already explained myself on this one if you care to read back over my previous responses. SOME working class people RIGHTLY or WRONGLY feel disproportionately affected by immigration from the EU because of population and infrastructural pressures. This includes housing, the NHS and indeed low/semi skilled jobs. That of course isn't the whole story, not all people feel the same, but it has impacted the poorest communities most (perceived or otherwise). Louisa.

Rah I don't believe at any point I have implied that. My point is that immigration does disproportionately impact upon working class communities more than others, and that those representing the 'Out' campaigns are not really reflective of that. I am not saying all working class people are anti-immigrant, and I do wish you and other 'In' supporters would stop implying that anyone who has a concern with this subject is somehow xenophobic or worse. You are skewing my side of the argument to fit into that box and it is very misleading. I would equally argue not all wealthy 'Out' Tories have economic control reasons for wishing to leave. Louisa.

IN also sounds like BIN. Where your life will end up if you vote for it. OUT also sounds like ... Ok I give up. Louisa.

LondonMix Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > That's not what I said. I said the people who > want to leave because of sovereignty are older and > wealthy Tories. I am more than aware that most > Brexiters want to leave because they want to > curtail immigration. > > > Louisa Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > LM I disagree. It's not just older and wealthy > > Tories. Immigration is causing huge swathes of > the > > electorate in the poorest regions to swing in > > favour of brexit, so please be under no > illusion > > it's simply older and wealthier people who want > > out. I know many people who are so anti-EU > they've > > vowed never to vote Labour again for the party > > officially backing the 'In' campaign. Labour > will > > pay the price for that decision, even Corbyn > must > > blush when he has to sit side by side with some > > peculiar right wing New Labour bed fellows on > this > > issue. He hates the EU, we all know that. > > > > Louisa. Sovereignty is of course important but in this debate it's a red herring. The wealthy may use that guise to explain their reasons for backing brexit, but the reality is a combination of immigration and wealth control, the former most important to poorer 'brexiters' and the later without doubt being in the ball park of the elite. Louisa.

I don't think anyone hates anyone in this debate. Certainly most rational people with a grasp of the facts aren't hating. Seems a shame the lowest common denominator is always reached one way or another on this forum. Louisa.

Seabag Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > IN > > On a purely superficial note, the OUT campaign is > full of ugly people Most of the 'In' crowd are hardly gonna set hearts racing in a naked charity calendar tbf. Louisa.

LM I disagree. It's not just older and wealthy Tories. Immigration is causing huge swathes of the electorate in the poorest regions to swing in favour of brexit, so please be under no illusion it's simply older and wealthier people who want out. I know many people who are so anti-EU they've vowed never to vote Labour again for the party officially backing the 'In' campaign. Labour will pay the price for that decision, even Corbyn must blush when he has to sit side by side with some peculiar right wing New Labour bed fellows on this issue. He hates the EU, we all know that. Louisa.

I'm out, just like everything else on my particular currently is too ;-) The garden is lovely! Louisa.

i hear they'll be doing a buffet breakfast at 'the dog'. Surely it's gotta be worth visiting for that alone? A little gutted it won't be a harvester, I miss a nice salad cart and free roll. Louisa.

Jeremy I still think the village has more redeeming features than ED. yes it has plenty of bland chains (including a soon to be opening Sainsburys Local), but it also has a unique rural feel, matched only by a few other places in London. It has a indepedent art gallery, and some unique examples of architecture eg pond cottages. ED used to have character, but now it's pretty bland in my eyes. Most pubs are pretty dead and characterless, and the punters even more so. I don't think the village has to worry too much about its crown being taken from it yet. Anyway, I'd rather stay in my garden with a nice cold beer/wine and put the world to rights! Louisa.

LM do you at least concede Hilary is a polarising figure, and putting aside the fact she is a woman (I don't personally see why someone's sex as being relevant), this whole contest inevitably comes down to choosing between one polarising figure and another polarising figure. Louisa.

So you're admitting that you're being patronising, and you're also arguing with others that there are no 'non-bigoted' reasons for brexit. Doesn't that mean you've technically lost the argument you were trying to put across? If you even had one? Louisa.

Honestly root, I respect any opinion, but I really struggle with your stance on this. I've given plenty of rational arguments, sure not everyone will agree with them but they are all part of the argument. I think you are taking it all far too personally if you are seriously asking what the non-bigoted examples for brexit are. Patronising to be honest. Louisa.

LM in any normal circumstances I would say conceding defeat would be the appropriate thing to do, but considering how unpopular Hilary is both inside the Democrat Party and out in the wider US electorate, it is the right thing to do. It's alarming that some working class Democrats are so anti-establishment that they would be prepared to vote Trump rather than Hilary. She's a polarising figure, as much, if not more so than Trump. Louisa.

Oh rah I don't really sneer, half of what I say is taken the wrong way, never meant to be sneering. I think what root has said will only encourage people like me to vote out, it certainly isn't helping change my mind. What will be, will be I guess! I understand this issue is polarised, but sneering really isn't going to change minds. Louisa.

Sneering again root. Definitely voting out! Louisa.

I agree LadyNorwood. It's the metropolitan guardian reading elite who do all that sneering, and all it really does is make people dislike them and dig their heels in as you rightly point out. Gone are the days when working class culture meant having some national pride and respect. Traditional socialism was built on patriotic ideals, not these wishy washy elitist ideas coming from the social democrat internationalists who tend to be found in London. Louisa.

root Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > rahrahrah Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Fair enough, I suspect that we will see > > significant downswing in the economy and likely > an > > extension to austerity. I suspect immigration > will > > remain fairly high if it drops at all (in my > view > > no bad thing) and if it doesn't there will be > > further damage to the economy. If so there will > be > > further deterioration in public services. But > this > > of course is the judgment everyone will have to > > make for themselves. > > It's plain delusions of grandeur. No root it isn't delusions of grandeur. It's wanting to get our democracy back first and foremost, secondly to leave the EU and bring down immigration to save us money and free up our struggling infrastructural from the weight of all this population growth. I don't particularly care one way or another about the economic outcome, I think it won't be as bad as the doom merchants are predicting, but even if it is it will mean more affordable housing for those struggling to buy currently, and give local government more money from the money saved from EU membership to build and provide more social housing. Not a 'little Englander' talking here, a pragmatic pro-democracy stance. Louisa.

rahrahrah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > So Lou, do you think that post Brexit we'll see > more investment in public services? > What kind of fall do you think they'll be in > immigration numbers? What would you like to see? Probably not under this Tory government, but in terms of democracy if people are bored of them they can kick them out and put someone more progressive in who will invest in public services from the money we've saved by leaving the EU. I think the loosening of the trading relationship between us and the EU will mean we can stop freedom of movement and only allow in the essential people we need for specific services public and private. Louisa.

root Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Louisa Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > ... > > try going in any working mans clubs in the > north > > and preaching that mantra to people who've lost > > jobs, can't get on the housing list and are > > waiting longer than ever to get an operation at > > hospital. > > > > I got patched up at Barts. My urologist was > Gearman, my rheumatologist Italian. Bloody > immigrants. And why do these people come here to work? Because of freedom of movement, the same freedom that allows other Europeans to come here and be entitled to use the very same NHS which is already under strain from lack of investment. Europeans contribute, but they also take out. That's part of the whole freedom of movement 'luxury'. The issue isn't about who they are, it's how many are here and the impact it is having on public services and housing. Louisa.

Root did you not read what I already posted? Yes they contribute, but they also add strain to our infrastructure. It's a two way street. We have a housing crisis which can be brought under control (I believe), by exiting the EU and bringing down the numbers coming in. I don't particularly worry about the direct impact on the economy, that may be part of the argument for some but personally it's a small part of it. The housing market will level itself out over a few years once brexit happens. Louisa.

rahrahrah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Well that depends on what you think will happen. > If the economy suffers (as I believe it will), > then brexit may well lead to a further > deterioration in public services. Immigration > keeps public services going for crying out loud. > ...and it's wrong to suggest that this view is the > sole preserve of some imagined metropolitan elite. The economy may well suffer, I personally believe it will not, but even if it does, it's a price worth paying to regain our democracy and have more direct control over who comes in and out of our borders. I know lots of people suggest this will not fundamentally change, but my belief is it will have to because we will probably vastly reduce our trading relationship with the EU as time goes along. We do not have to accept freedom of movement as part of any trading deals, that's a totally false argument. Immigration only keeps our infrastructure going because we allow it to, we can more than support our public services by training up people born here and offering them the jobs which many migrants currently take. I'm sorry rah, but the metropolitan elite of this city have been doing it for years and this is why so much of this country is now fragmenting. It's incredibly patronising for people from other regions to switch the TV on and be confronted by out of touch folk in a city hundreds of miles away who 'know best for them'. Corbyn still fails to acknowledge that immigration is even an issue, and try going in any working mans clubs in the north and preaching that mantra to people who've lost jobs, can't get on the housing list and are waiting longer than ever to get an operation at hospital. Louisa.

rahrahrah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Louisa Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > What I find more depressing is people sat in > their > > ivory tower in London feeling sad about the > > rhetoric surrounding immigration, which of > course > > further reinforces the view in the poorest > regions > > that the political elite in this city are > totally > > out of touch with the rest of the country. Try > > telling a family who have been sat on the > housing > > waiting list for years in Derby or Preston that > > it's sad we are talking about immigration all > the > > time. Some people may well feel we aren't > talking > > about it enough. > > > > Louisa. > > That assumes that the failure of successive > governments to build social housing, whilst > selling off the stock we have is in fact the fault > of immigrants. When we have a population which is growing year on year (primarily but not exclusively as a result of freedom of movement from the EU), coupled with a lack of social house building it is inevitable that people at the bottom of the pile will start pointing fingers and being a bit pissed off with government and start blaming the people coming here for their woes. If we pull out of the EU we won't solve the housing crisis overnight, but the strain being put on our infrastructure will at least be able to be controlled more directly from within our own borders. It is of course not the fault of the migrants coming here and it is very sad that they are taking the blame for a problem we created ourselves by ever joining this undemocratic union of nations. Louisa.

What I find more depressing is people sat in their ivory tower in London feeling sad about the rhetoric surrounding immigration, which of course further reinforces the view in the poorest regions that the political elite in this city are totally out of touch with the rest of the country. Try telling a family who have been sat on the housing waiting list for years in Derby or Preston that it's sad we are talking about immigration all the time. Some people may well feel we aren't talking about it enough. Louisa.