Blah Blah

So the campaign against the war and the huge demonstration that followed didn't happen Loz? Wasn't it that attack from the left that led to Blair's downfall? C'mon now. That aside, why would the left criticise a government that pumped money into public services after more than a decade of neglect from the previous Conservative government? That's what the left fights for (amongst other things). Better public services, better wages and equality of wealth for all. The conservatives believe only the free market can provide that but as we all know, the free market has never cared if people get education, healthcare, pension etc. So please forgive me for pointing out that that 23.5% is more remarkable than the usual 35% of a majority government. It's crap and you know it's crap. And to say the other parties all had Ausrity too when none of the other parties were proposing anything on the scale of the Tories is BS too. EVERY other party wanted to abolish the bedroom tax for example, so lets argue that 87.8% voted for getting rid of that heinous piece of legislation for a start. I can list plenty more examples..... Meanwhile the disabled are being hit with a mallet, millions need handouts from charity and foodbanks (caused by tory welfare reform and low wages) and the young are facing never being able to buy a home. In my sector, I have less and less resources and more and more patients in need, a good many of them made ill by hardship and welfare reform. I don't know where you get this idea that the marchers were representing every person who didn't vote tory from. No-one has said that. All that has been said is that the vast majority of the population did not vote for the government we have now got. I didn't go to the March yesterday because I have young children and it would have been too much for them I think, but I absolutely support any voice that criticises the current thinking on who should pay the biggest price to fix the economy. It's all BS anyway. We all take on huge debts to buy houses, to go to university, buy cars or just about anything we want NOW! The Tories were the ones who brought us cheap credit and turned our economy into a consumer retail one. New Labour kept the gravy train going. It's totally hypocritical now to be telling us all that any kind of debt is bad.

But Loz, that poster does have a point. If you look at the political map, the urban areas are overwhelmingly Labour. The vast majority of the poorest and lowest paid live in urban areas. Coincidence? I think not. Our electoral system on the one hand can provide stable governemnt with the mandate of the people but on this occasion it is the government of the few. It's perfectly ok to say that and people will say that everytime Cameron says he has the mandate of the people. Louisa, since when did celebrities stop being human beings and have to absolve themselves of having any views? Z list is your sneer, but you seem to think that fame means not having a voice and not being allowed to take interest in causes that you agree with. Yet another 'us and them' view from you?

Relying on a computer to assess calls is completely wrong imo. It's what happens when public services try to cut costs by taking any kind of decision making away from staff. It means they don't have to know anything and are cheaper to employ. I once had to attend to an injured (traffic accident) woman while passing and someone else called the ambulance. In spite of knowing exactly what to do I got exasperated at the person on the other end of the phone who wanted to ask me a long list of questions. I cut her short, telling her I knew what I was doing and an ambulance was required right away. Now if I had to be forceful in that way, what chance do non medical people have? (Glad to say the ambulance on that occasion arrived within five minutes and the woman made a full recovery). There has to be an inquiry into the system I think. It's not the first time things have gone wrong.

Absolutely awful attack. Personally I find it hard to understand that an 8 months pregnant woman being seriously assaulted would be anything but an emergency for the ambulance service.

Maybe to you, but I really like it!

There's a weatherspoons just up behind sainsburys (Fox on the Hill).

I belong to a union Louisa, and it's affiliation with the Labour party is nothing to fear, really it isn't. Unions perform a very important role in making sure employees aren't totally screwed over. And as someone pointed out above, most of them are not run by firebrands. The work they do is important, most of which is amicable negotiation between employer and union. We don't have to go far back to see what a non unionised country was like. DO you really want a country where all parties are funded by corporations and bankers?

Loz Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Blah Blah Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > The highest figure I can find for income lost to > offshore investments and tax avoidance schemes is > > 99bn a year (BBC). > > Though that sounds like the rather made-up figure > by the terribly numerically inept Tax Research UK. > The official figure is ?34bn. Thanks Loz, not easy to find good figures sometimes but it still makes the point that if we are talking about income going offshore, immigrants sending money home is nothing compared to other forms of offshore activity.

The highest figure I could find for money shipped abroad by immigrants is 2.3bn a year (Daily Mail). The highest figure I can find for income lost to offshore investments and tax avoidance schemes is 99bn a year (BBC). Banks facilitate these investments and it is estimated the money involved is 23 trillion per year. So let's talk about that shall we if you are really so concerned about money going out of the economy.

Ok how many British people make investments that are held abroad then. Offshore tax havens? Do they have a negactive impact? Of course they do but the only money going out of the country that you seem to be bothered about is that earned by immigrant workers, many of whom are doing min wage jobs btw. I'm all for a sensible balanced debate, but not one that picks on the usual suspects.

Green Goose, a higher percentage of immigrants work than UK nationals and PAY TAX. They can do what they like with their disposable income just as you can do with yours. You know it's a funny thing but the Spanish say exactly the same about all those British ex pats running small businesses/ bars in spain and employing (shock horror) british people. Exactly the same things. It's nonsesne there and it's nonsense here too.

Henry, Whilst I acccept some aspects of GB's time as chancellor were detrimental, isn't that just the nature of being a chancellor during boom times? Nigel Lawson had his own clangers. When did the housing market see a crash exactly under New Labour? See that is the one sector that has been protected from crashing since the crash of the late 80's (the one in which 300,000 home owners found themselves in negative equity). If anything the low interest rates were created to stop that happening again. The housing market is just about the poorest example you can give of impact of ecenomic crashes in the last 25 years. We could thouh talk about welfare reform instead. In 2007 - 2010 25000, to 40,000 people needed referral to food banks. As of 2015 it stood at over ONE MILLION referrals. 44% of which were due to welfare reforms and sanctions. Is that a measure of a successful management of an economy? Cant blame anyone but the coalition for that. It is true to say that with the exception of things like that, both Labour and the Tories essentially believe in the same free market system. But one thing I also know is that the free market does NOT take care of everything. Employers and companies are in business to minimise costs and maximise profit (most of them anyway). They don't care if you eat properly, have somewhere decent to live or even have a pension when you are too old to work, or help if you become ill. THAT is why we have a benefit system. Personally I feel totally ashamed that we have become a country that puts people already at the bottom in an even worse situation. And I make no apologies for that.

Have you had a look at how many doctors and nurses and cleaners come from oversees Green Goose? Such a stupid thing to say that immigration has no benefits. Almost as stupid as saying the same about emigration and internal migration. I totally agree numbers that the SNP have not been perfect at Holyrood. They have no excuse now though, hence my optimism that the SNP may have peaked. Still reading your long post Henry :)

"Credit is due to rahrah who, in his posts gave the most accurate, concise and insightful assessment of the situation. Keep it coming, please." See we can all do that Green Goose!

Yeah but can you eat a bacon sandwich right?

Yep I agree ????. Boris would be a disaster as Tory leader. Miga for next leader of the Labour party tho ;D

Completely agree Miga. Miga's failure was to fight Cameron on the economy from the off. Not to wait for an election campaign.

Lousia, the Scots did not shift towards the left (and you contradict yourself in that point), they shifted to the right in support of a nationalist party. The SNP are nationalists first, fighting for independence. They election campaign was fought on fighting austerity and last time I checked fighting poverty wasn't necessarily a left wing issue, or would you have us all believe that no one on the right cares about such things? But I'm glad to see you at least acknowlege that the Tories only improved mainly in their traditional heartlands (and that's where the swing actually was). Marginals do go back and forth - so nothing significant there for me. I'd hardly call it a significant swing to the right. It's a far cry from the real gains made by the Tory party in the 80s. If anything it shouws only a polarisation between core voters of both the main parties with the SNP gains and libdem losses deciding things. So a nation of three halves if you like.

Maybe I can discount the home countries and show that Labour actually did better than the real figures show as well?

That's just massaging figures to your own ends Louisa. It was a UK election so every vote in the UK counts and parliament works for the entire UK, or should at least. We know there's more Tory support in the south and more support for other parties in the north. It does not make us a Tory nation. That's also exactly why parties like the SNP have done so well. People feel completely ignored by a south centric serving government. It still maintains that there is nothing like the support shown for the Tory landslides of the 80s and that urban metropolitain centres (where most people live) are still Labour heartlands.

We also have to remember that the pecentage of voting share between the Tories and Labour was JUST 6%. So whilst Miliband got the image/ policy/ message etc wrong, it can't really be argued that the Tories got it absolutely right either. For all the delusion of various Labour MPs their were an equal number of Tories who expected Cameron to fail (Boris being one of them I suspect). For me that reads as a time of not totally understood change in thinking from the public, not understood on either side of the main parties. In light of that I think Labour are in a better position than they may think to come back. They will have to get their new leader right, but it is no way the end of them, as it may have been had Cameron won with an overwheming majority. No-one knows what will happen over the next five years, to the economy or anything. And a Europe referendum is promised too. That will be a huge game changer depending on the result and the impacts, if any, of us leaving the EU. It's not going to be an easy ride for the Tories by any means.

I'm with you David. There will be someone but whether or not the Labour party can find them is another matter.

Green Goose, cutting to balance ultimately means no safety net for those at the bottom, no healthcare for all, no education for all. Is that where you really want us to go? We have ALWAYS borrowed money and we are still here! BTW you conveniently forget the trillions borrowed to bail out the banks. It's not really about Labour or Conservative, it's about the kind of economy we have. Growth depends entirely on debt, from buying your home to capital projects. You can't have it both ways. Cheap credit is the reason for most growth since the 80's and we are ALL part of it. The entire free market economy depends on it. Why you pick on the unemployed is beyond me. 60% of social security budget is spent on the over 65s, in pensions and other benefits. Those have been protected from any cuts by THIS government. The next highest spend is on families in work with children. They need those tax credits and housing benefit because their low wages don't cover basic living costs. I think you need to better inform yourself in the true spend of welfare before you make sweeping statements about work shy people making lifestyle choices. Meanwhile no mention of tax avoidance and the recent scandals around capital gains tax. I broadly agree with rahrah's economic analysis (and the figures ARE out there to see for yourself) and the point someone made that the wider public don't know enough about economics. I was one of those people a year ago too, but decided to learn more and it WAS a revelation. It was the point at which I saw for myself what a merry song and dance the Coalition had led us all on. But Labour can only blame themselves for not countering that effectively enough. I also agree with Jeremy and also think that Labour in power would have seen some recovery too. We were never in the same place as Greece, or Italy or Spain etc.

What are you talking about Green Goose? I've for one have agreed with some of ???? points, but he is further right than me for sure. I equally get fed up of people like you rejecting every opposing view as left wing tosh! I've been consistent in saying the Tories don't spend enough (and public services DO suffer) and Labour go the other way, agreeing completely with Louisa for once even! The truth is that any sensible person can see we need to be somewhere in between. Try telling the diasabled and those who can't get appointments to see their GP, and those on the now longer waiting lists that their experiences are just left wing tosh. Try telling those on min wage who need tax credits and beneifts just to make ends meet that the Tories are better for them. You can't keep cutting. Eventually you have to face up to the fact that we need many more jobs, that pay better, and we need them outside of the south east, in places like the North and Scotland, places that both the Tories and New labour have utterly failed to serve. I don't see anything in Camerons manifesto to deal with housing. I don't see anything more than more cuts for the poorest. I do see tax giveaways for those who need them least though. I don't see any fiscal plan for getting exports and productivity up (there is some investment for business but weofully small). And I don't see any plan for closing the gap between wages and the cost of living, so that tax payers money doesn't need to be spent topping them up.

Ha ha Loz :D