Blah Blah

To answer your question Robbie there are two things to consider. It is not unusual for labs to research pathogens from animal species. Many labs around the world do that. And three years ago, a programme began to try and decode every pathogen hosted by every animal species. The idea being that if the genome sequence for every zoonotic virus that exists is recorded, it will enhance the ability to develop vaccines and prevent future pandemics. Bats are the most pathogenic species on the planet, which puts them high on the list for research. They carry at least 60 different zoonotic viruses alone, but do not get ill from them. And bats are found everywhere, not just in China. It does not surprise me that viral research in Wuhan is focused on bats, especially after the first SARS outbreak in 2003. The Wuhan laboratory has published a lot of useful research around immunology. One of the key areas for virology and immunology is in finding a way to prevent cytokine storms. This is where the body overproduces antibodies to fend off a virus, causing the body to attack its own organs. Bats immune systems do not do this. The labs doing that kind of research are level 4 labs. So the second point to consider is the risk. If any country is going to do this kind of research, it needs to employ the highest level of biotech safety. If there is a lapse in that protocol, then yes, it is perfectly possible for a virus to accidentally leave a lab, either in its original form, or in a mutated form. And as the link that TE44 posts above shows, it can simply be a wrongly labelled sample. A level 3 intermediate sample, finds its way into a level 2 batch of pseudovirus samples. There were a couple of incidents of lab workers catching SARS in a lab, one in Beijing in 2004 and one in Singapore. However, in relation to COVID, the science does not point to either a lab creation or mutation. There are ways of seeing that if that were the case. What does not help though is that China has a track record of secrecy and covering up previous SARS outbreaks. So it is not hard to see why suspicion is easily roused. My own view is that I think it very unlikely that anything escaped from a level 4 lab (even in China). Covid is not a direct infection from a bat. It needed an intermediate animal host to mutate. But we may never know for sure what that intermediate host is, nor where exactly the first transmission to human took place (patient zero) unfortunately.

TE44 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Blah blah, Thanks I appreciate your explaining, > but I do have concerns myself as although > psuedovirus developing > falls into a biolevel 2 for safety, there are stll > safety issues. Link to > HIV psuedovirus link. Yes there are risks involved. But this is why pseudovirus copies are used and not the actual virus itself. The incident referenced in your link should never happen and I am sure procedures were tightened up at that lab as a result. No-one understands the risks more than those who work at a lab.

Point taken TE44, but it is hard to have respect for a person who posts science they don't understand as evidence for a conspiracy theory they want to believe, and then carries on pretending like they understand the science they have posted when called out. For those of us who do understand the science, it has been a very frustrating month debunking these conspiracy theories. Even the American Intelligence Agency have clearly stated the virus did not come out of a Chinese lab, after Trump claimed to have seen evidence it did. The link that Robbie posted, cites the results of research into the mutation of SARS CoV from its original host in Bats. In 2007 (the year of that research), China was working towards a vaccine for the first SARS outbreak in 2002/3. There is nothing unusual about this research or the processes it uses. Pseudoviruses for example, are engineered copies of the virus being studied, with the ability to replicate itself removed. In other words, it renders the virus safe to work on in a lab. Without the ability to replicate itself, even if it gets into a living cell, a virus is benign. The purpose of this study was to look at the protein impacts on ACE2 receptors. So why does Robbie use this article then? Because it is a Chinese lab report that mentions HIV (as a separate study) and talks about creating pseudoviruses etc. Therefore it must mean that the Chinese created a virus by 'splicing' SARS and HIV together. It does not seem to matter to him that the report doesn't actually say that. And even more poignant question would be to ask him who passed that link onto him?

Oh dear Robbie. Stop embarrassing yourself. You haven't a clue what you posted is about have you? And by the way, your claim was splicing SARS with HIV - nothing says that either does it? The paragraph you are posting is talking about creating DNA pathways to test the protein process of the SARS virus. Using Chimera in this way, is one of many stages in developing vaccines.

Robbie Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > It amuses me when I see pathetic keyboard warriors > that can't resist an insult or something > derogatory in most of their comments. It amuses me when I see links to scientific articles that the conspiracy theorist poster doesn't understand. Still waiting for you to point where that article suggests the splicing of two viruses Robbie. Don't take too long now ;)

Lots of evidence of that and more out there Plough Man ;) https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/selling-nhs-profit-full-list-4646154 https://www.thenational.scot/news/18255016.revealed-links-tory-mps-private-healthcare/

I agree Malumbu. There are a lot of unknowns but we were already an economy in decline anyway. We seem to think we can stay on top forever (an arrogance delivered by an Empirical past of course) but the rest of the World has been catching up for some time. I still think that if we can get away from that mentality, we can create a more vibrant and meritocratic economy. And maybe one good thing to come out of this pandemic will be a necessary shift away from plutocracy.

In a nutshell, yes Edcam. It is the alt right rabbit hole.

jimlad48 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I've spoken to enough doctors I know socially and > professionally to hear that many feel the threat > is not as bad as some people make it out to be. > Its hitting people who are either on their way out > anyway, or its hitting people who are made worse > by very poor lifestyle choices. Really? because I don't know a single one underestimates the issues with pandemics. > I'm sorry, I know its a nasty illness, but lets be > clear, its mainly hitting people who are already > at risk of infection anyway due to underlying > conditions. Have you not also noticed that a high percentage of people who contract the virus need ICU care to recover? And that adults of ANY age can end up in that position? What would you say if 18% of the entire population needed ICU care in just 12 weeks and many of them died because they could not get that care? Because that is the point you are missing here. > Haven't you noticed how many of the > death figures contain thewords 'all but X had > underlying health conditions' -thats the thing, it > was a factor, it was not the sole factor. No you are completely wrong here. It is the virus that leads to the onset of the conditions that cause death in their compromised immune systems and biology. It is a premature death caused by the virus in other words. It is the reason why we vaccinate against flu. Flu is another virus that causes premature death in this way. > I genuinely think we're overreacting here and my > worry is the medium term ability to pay for an NHS > to cope for future outbreaks is at risk. The > sooner we relax the restrictions the better, and > get on with our lives. We borrowed far more money to get through the second world war. And every country in the world is in the same position. The thing with economics is that it is a human construct. Resources and a work force do not disappear suddenly. The world will adjust its economic modelling, especially if the virus mutates and brings a second wave. And therein is the real risk. If the virus were allowed to spread freely, apart from the tens of millions it would kill, the risk of mutation into a more virulent and deadly wave becomes increased. This is what happened with Spanish Flu. You might argue now that the elderly are expendable, so who cares if millions of them die, but what will you say if a mutation starts killing other age groups in significant percentages? We are already heading for a society with differing levels of fear. Imagine what would happen in that latter scenario. A short term economic hit to get public health in a manageable position will cost far less in the longer term considering the alternative. The truth is that we just do not know enough about this virus yet to risk that. We don't even know if getting the virus delivers immunity, because it takes months and years to genuinely measure that. SARS CoV 1 seems to suggest any immunity is short term and weak. So the only way to beat this may well be with a vaccine in the same way seasonal flu is controlled. And this is also why that Oxford vaccine has been developed using Adenovirus and not the SARS CoV 2 virus. The Adenovirus produces a stronger antibody response that may work to combat Covid - that is the thinking there.

diable rouge Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > David Icke recently had his Facebook account > closed due to the dangerous conspiracy theories > and disinformation he was peddling. > Perhaps Admin would like to review some of the > recent posts on here under the guise of > 'information'?... Agreed. Robbie is clearly now using the forum to peddle conspiracy theories.

Robbie wrote. 'As for evidence that the Wuhan lab spliced Coronavirus with HIV, here you go: [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] ' I do love it when people post links to credible scientific anaylsis, that do not support the point they are making. This is because you Robbie, do not understand the science in the link you are posting do you? Tell us all just where that link shows any virus was spliced - go on Einstein! Let's see how much you understand about the science of virology.

snowy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Have you just quoted Qanon conspiracy theories? Yes he did. it has been obvious from his opening post where he is coming from. Hence the ridiculous claims around the intelligence of President Trump and conflating the use of residual amounts of disinfecting compounds in some vaccines with defending Trumps clear request that his medical advisors look into the effectiveness of injecting disinfectant into the body. Do not dive into the rabbit hole folks. He thins he is clever, playing the game of only being mildly interested in that stuff.

But you are wrong Jimlad. Pandemics left to spread freely also destroy economies, because so many people get ill, they contract very quickly. This is not Influenza (for which we have vaccines btw). This has a higher infection and death rate. We have already surpassed the annual death rate caused by the flu virus in just six weeks. The annual average for flu related deaths is around the 12,000 range and that is across 12 months. Covid is not simply a nasty bug. It is a very infectious SARS virus. It IS the cause of death because it attacks the ACE2 receptors in human cells which is what allows pneumonia to take hold, or for cytokine storms to cause organ failure. I take it you are not a doctor Jimlad, or medically trained. If you were, you would not be trying to compare this virus to flu in the way your post seems to seek to do.

Trump apologists are often as poorly educated as he is - that is the problem.

Disinfectant is a chemical compound. You are confusing a verb with a noun. Trump clearly used the noun. The definition of the noun 'disinfectant' according to the Oxford Dictionary; 'a substance that kills bacteria, used for cleaning. a strong smell of disinfectant.' The definition of the verb 'to disinfect' according to the Oxford Dictionary; 'to clean something using a substance that kills bacteria.' It is quite clear what Trump meant. Even his own medical advisors in the room were cringing. That is on camera for all to see. Playing games with semantics doesn't change that. The USA still hasn't reached her peak. The handful of countries with more deaths per million are ahead of her on their curves. The USA, like Spain, Italy and the UK, would have seen less deaths if they had responded sooner. Trump seems to be the only leader unable to acknowledge this. That's all there is to it.

Well said dbboy. I do wonder if some people won't be convinced until there are rows of dead bodies in the streets, with no-one left to collect and bury them. This is what a pandemic looks like. It exponentially creeps, overwhelming health resources and killing larger than average numbers of people in a relatively short time. We are still only at the beginning. The average global pandemic comes in several waves. That more people aren't dying is precisely because of how much we understand about pandemics and the modern resources we have. Even the doctors of 1918, who couldn't actually see a virus under a microscope yet, understood the part that social distancing and PPE play in mitigating spread. The city of Manchester that enforced measures, saw less deaths than the other large cities that followed the government line that deemed keeping factories open (with no preventative measures) for the war effort more important. It is not rocket science. Every time a new virus (or even a known but dangerous one) outbreaks, there is well practised set pattern of procedures that are put into practise. This is because they work! And it is also why countries that have had to deal with public health crisis in the recent past, are better prepared to deal with this one. Asia and parts of Africa already have the trained personnel in place. The West does not. We think we are untouchable. That science will find the answers we need instantly. That pandemics happen somewhere else. That mindset needs to change, and change fast.

Robbie, there is no evidence of any lab trying to 'splice' HIV and any coronavirus. If you knew anything about virology, you would understand how difficult these things are to actually do. 'Off-grain' experimentation, to give it its real name, is extremely dangerous. The SARS Cov2 virus absolutely evolved naturally, from bats (every geneticist in the world agrees with that). Trump is clutching at straws for political reasons. He has an election coming up and his ratings are dropping. He needs to find a way to deflect any blame for the rising death toll from his lack of speed of response to the spread. He knows this is going to be a key Democrat weapon in the election campaign. It is just like Seenbeen trying to defend Trump's lack of understanding about viral biology, even though he has one of the USA's leading epidemiologists trying to explain it to him daily. Disinfectant is a chemical liquid that destroys bacteria, designed entirely for external use. There is NO other definition. Even a five year old knows that. It is not ok for the President of one of the World's superpowers to be so stupid, really it isn't.

This kind of discussion really isn't helpful. No scientist in the world claims the virus is man made, so discussing conspiracy theories around that is pointless. Let's stick to real science and facts, and leave the insane conspiracy stuff to the various youtube channels where it seems to live.

Response as the pandemic hits is one thing, preparedness for the scenario of a pandemic is another. On the former there is room for debate, on the latter none. In spite of an in depth exercise and assessment of the real threat of a global pandemic a few years ago, the government did not address the recommendations, or the areas found lacking from that exercise. For example, it never built up a stockpile of surgical gowns, even though the report apparently identified that as one area in need of addressing. The rumour is that funding for pandemic preparations was funded into no deal Brexit preparations. Who knows what the truth is, but I suspect this will all come out in a subsequent inquiry. There will be real pressure on government to publish any relevant reports, although we are still waiting for the Russia report to be published etc, so transparency I suspect, won't be high in this government's list of priorities, and there may well be need for legal action once again.

Why are you posting an article that regards the real science behind the protein path of viral antigens as some kind of ad hoc defence of President incapable of understanding even basic science? Acknowledge what the rest of the world can see for themselves at least! As for reading books, it is a good job some people do, or you would have no doctor to treat you when you get sick, no engineer to develop new technology, no geneticist to develop stem cell treatments, no chemists to develop vaccines, no movies to watch and so on. Books are about knowledge (and creativity and ideas). Ignorance comes from a lack of knowledge. You can figure out the rest for yourself I hope.

He doesn't read anything. It is claimed he has never read a book ever. Totally far fetched to even argue that reading that Express article would lead someone to conclude disinfectant can be used to fight the virus internally.

It does not matter what Trump said exactly. The point is that he displayed a complete lack of any ability to understand the difference between tackling a virus on a surface, and tackling a virus that has already infected human cells. And he displayed that ignorance in spite of having given his ear for weeks to one of the leading pandemic experts in America! So you have to wonder just how much he actually comprehends about any of it.

Whilst this is true, it is hard to rewrite centuries of generational belief in any country that is still rural in many parts. China is not the only country in the developing world where long standing traditions clash with the modern world. The same can be said of culture clashes within religions too. Education is usually the only way to fix that, and as you say, replacing superstition with science is what needs to happen. And we have our own problems in the Western world too. The rise of belief in conspiracy theories, the rejection of science (even around this pandemic) and experts. The only way to bring everyone up to the same health standards is through a global symbiosis. I find it somewhat ironic, that at a time when nationalism is on the rise, and populism is fashionable, that a global pandemic arrives to force us all to work together again.

fishbiscuits Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > To me, it seems fairly logical that > selling exotic imported wild animals (often > alive), in a crowded fish/meat market is > problematic. No-one disagrees with this. Similarly, packing thousands of chickens, or cows, or pigs, into enclosed barns in close proximity has similar risks. Personally, I think many areas of food production and consumption need looking at. > Also, I'm not inclined to indulge cultural > practices of consuming exotic (sometimes > rare/endangered) animals, or animal parts, for > supposed medicinal purposes. It's a regressive > practice, and endangers wildlife. I see no sense > in pandering to it for the sake of appearing > "woke". Who is pandering to anything? I simply asked a question, around how a country like China, with huge rural areas, would Police what people eat? This is true of many countries were large numbers of people still live off the land, mainly because they are too remote or too poor to live any other way. It is a more difficult issue to address than simply closing wet markets (although that would be a good start).

Pandemics have originated in all continents historically. Spanish Flu for example, it is agreed by most scientists, began in North America, on a pig farm. Avian flu, can emerge anywhere, because birds are migratory. MERS was a zoonotic leap from camels. It is not always the case that unsanitary food production is the source of zoonotic transmission either. Just working around live animals, or being bitten by an animal can start a new strain of virus in humans. On the WHO, you need to understand a bit more about what the WHO actually does. Although it is an extended branch of the UN, It has no power to sanction or dictate policy to any government. China absolutely are at fault for their initial response to something happening in their country. But given that China is a highly secretive communist government, it is harsh to expect any outside organisation to have had knowledge of something until China herself informed them. Not until the virus started appearing outside of China, were the WHO able to receive information that was not written by China. Where a valid criticism can be made regarding the WHO however, is in that it has been too slow in declaring, not just this viral outbreak a pandemic, but also previous outbreaks, like the last Ebola and Swine Flu ones. By your logic, that would make them in the pocket of Guinea and Mexico too! So that is where the WHO needs to look at its own failings. Moving forward, there will be huge international pressure on China to change many things, but it won't be the WHO that can force any change, but an international raft of sanctions and other measures carried out by other governments. It is unrealistic to expect us to live in a pandemic free world, especially given how many of us there now are and how easily we move around the world. The lessons as always, will be in improving detection and response.