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I am so pleased that worked out scotlass, and thank you for giving the little fellow a chance of life. This is the forum at its best. All angles covered and a happy outcome.

Unbeknownst to you Cat, there may be a front line worker living on your street, in your neighbourhood. It can not be underestimated how appreciated those workers feel hearing the nation come out every week to clap for them. It is a gesture of solidarity, lets them now they are not forgotten while mostly everyone else stays safe at home. Try to see it for the way it is meant to be seen maybe? :)

So pleased to hear that scotlass. They are a great rescue group and hopefully will get the little fellow back to the wild as soon as possible :)

And their advice for birds here; https://www.londonwildlifeprotection.org/found-an-animal/ We don't have a car but I am sure someone would help to get the bird to one of the drop off points.

Try these folks. https://www.londonwildlifeprotection.org/ They have an emergency number for injured birds 07909 795064

???? gromit. Of course there is a point in a vaccine.

The screeching noise is foxes mating. It is that time of year.

By the time Beijing caught wind of the cover up by local authorities in China, and sounded the alarm, the virus had already spread across borders. So stopping flights at that moment would not have prevented the spread of something so infectious with its various incubation periods. We focus on flights because that is the quickest way to travel anywhere, but land borders are also crossed easily, boats still sail and so on. All the processes followed from thereon are the established processes for pandemic management. Isolation of cases and contact tracking for example, but what changed that response into the subsequent social distancing and then lockdown (also established stages of pandemic response modelling) are the realisations around infectiousness and severity of symptoms. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and it is important to try and understand the pressure on science and governments when new viruses emerge. Epidemiologists train for a worst case scenario they hope never to have to put into action. It's a big call to make and what follows, depends on the success of the race to develop vaccines and treatments. On flights still coming here with no checks, I don't know why any government would not automatically quarantine travellers. But you could also ask why public transport was allowed to run as normal for as long as it did and so on. That is in between navigating all the silly conspiracy theories out there and those who just refuse to believe there is even a virus at all. There is a clear clash emerging between the ethics of saving lives and political interests around economic concerns. For me it is not a question of either/ or. Pandemics do happen. There will always be lives lost and there will always be economic impacts. The same is true of global wars. Those that come through best, are those best able to adapt to the new world that emerges.

That was a very good interview and worth watching on iplayer Artclub. What she actually said is that coronaviruses are good at not leaving a strong immunity memory (something already understood by virologists), but that you do not have to use the virus you are trying to combat to create a vaccine, and that there is a difference between immunity left by recovery from a virus and immunity given by a vaccine. Artclub's initial question is a very good one. Given that most vaccines are created by using the virus you are trying to combat to teach the body to create antibodies to fight that particular virus, how do you do that for a virus that doesn't teach the body to do that in those that catch the virus and recover? Sarah Gilbert answers that in her Marr interview. She explains that you can teach the body to produce the antibodies to fight certain antigenic processes, that may be used by a variety of viruses. Her vaccine is not using SARS Cov2 at all, but the Adenovirus which she hopes will produce a stronger immune response. She explains how COVID19 latches onto the bodies ACE2 receptors and how that ACE2 receptor is the key factor in the age and gender differentials we are seeing in symptoms and mortality, and that vaccines do not work as effectively in older people as they do younger people (but that can be addressed with booster vaccines as often as they are needed). She also touched on antigenic shift and drift a little too. That is the part that interests me because it is the indicator as to how difficult this virus might be to manage moving forward. She seems to say that minor antigenic drift observations are being seen already as opposed to the major antigenic shift we see with the seasonal flu virus. If it stays that way, then while we may never totally eradicate this virus, it may end up being entirely manageable once we have vaccines in play. Her interview is 17 mins in Artclub and I think it answers your question very succinctly while also explaining some of the main challenges in developing a vaccine that can be widely used. :)

Yes Edcam. The cleaning Plough Man refers to, works because the chemicals in use destroy the surface of the virus, thereby erasing the antigen ability to infect live cells. There is absolutely NO evidence of UV rays destroying SARS viruses. If you look at table 2 of this link you can see how much lower the coronavirus SnS is compared to other viruses. This is outside the range of UV light that destroys human skin cells. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1280232/ Where UV light destroys human cells, it is between 200 and 280 nanometres. There is already UV emitting equipment in hospitals like this, that is used to kill pathogens. While it is effective against a whole range of things from Ecoli to MRSA, no tests conducted so far show any effectiveness against coronaviruses. Even more worrying is results published today showing no evidence of immunity from having recovered from the COVID virus. It is becoming increasingly clear that we are not dealing with a pathogen that follows the rules of most other viruses here. Disinfectant and good hygiene practise may be our only effective prevention for some time to come.

Will be interested to see how this goes. We have a garden that we could put some plants to good use in :)

Yes, no evidence yet that warmer temperatures stop the virus. And that won't be known for some time yet. Respiratory viruses are not flu viruses, so making assumptions that they behave in the same way is premature. Some of the first places to show spread outside of China are warm climates.

We are all veggies in our household seenbeen, so think the whole wet market with open slaughter principle to be completely barbaric. That it also breaks every known parameter around bacterial and viral contamination is something every person, carnivore or veggie should be in agreement on. There are safe methods for meat production, and there are super healthy methods too through the free range option. There is NO excuse for anyone to be buying and eating dangerous meat. A lot of this is down to culture, way of life, over education and sanitation. But how many governments around the world are really reduced to feeding their nations with dangerous methods of food distribution? None is the answer. Much of the dangerous meat trade is illegal. So taking on the illegal meat trade is where the focus needs to be right now.

KidKruger Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Sue, rather than quarantine your jar of peanut > butter, why not wash it like a dish in the kitchen > sink. > We are washing all shopping properly, then rinsing > it and letting it dry on drainer (except fridge > stuff which goes straight in there. > We quarantine our post though, it stays on floor > for a few days - we ain't washing that !! Yes, just a good wash with soap and disinfectant will be enough. It has been in transit in its packaging for 2-3 days anyway. No need for an extended quarantine. Enjoy the taste of disappearing peanut butter ;)

We just donated. Captain Tom is an inspiration to us all.

The real story is way better. A dead tree stump was turned into an art piece that people can enjoy/ debate forever. Granted it won't be everyone's cup of tea, but anything is better than a dead tree stump that eventually gets removed for being just a dead tree stump. The only alternative was perhaps a new sapling in its place. Personally, I like the quirky totem pole ;)

I think we have to remember here, what is it like to be a teenager. You feel invincible at that age right? And death is something that happens to old people right? We live in a western culture where most people do not die before their time. This is very different to parts of the world where people frequently die from the impacts of poor hygiene, poor sanitation, and poor healthcare. In many ways, our first world sanitation is our downfall. We live in a bubble where the very idea of an unseen microscopic virus upending our way of life is an anathema. So that poses a question that is as much about culture as it is about science. How do we impress on that minority of teens and adults alike who think they are not part of the risk? The good news is that they are a minority. The bad news is that it only takes one infected person to cause havoc with this virus. I don't have the answers either sadly, but if we are to change those minority mindsets, we need to be clever about it. It is about winning the argument.

Interesting post Plough Man. It does have an air of cronyism about it. It would also explain why the WHO were relaying Chinese press statements early on that were subsequently found to be wrong, instead of seeking corroboration. The Chinese declaration that human to human transmission was not happening being a case in point. All of this needs to be fully investigated once this is all over. Edited to say this was in response to the previous post. On WHO funding, that might also be something that needs to be looked at too, but I would argue that for now, all the focus should be on dealing with the pandemic. It is not helpful to be taking any action against the WHO right now. Worth also suggesting that Trump's action is with half an eye on the election later this year. He is deflecting blame for his slow response and dismissal of the virus in February now that the death rate is shooting up. And there are still many states in the US not operating lock downs yet, with all of them having reported at least one death from the virus. So things are probably going to get much worse for the US.

You've given me an idea for a new thread Sue - Everyday items that have now become luxuries :D

The Chinese have been eating all the things they do for centuries. Cheap exports of manufactured goods have nothing to do with it.

Just a couple of points. Re; NHS vs Private. In a pandemic, you would expect the NHS to be the primary lead, because it is a public health issue, with a government led response. No-one would be going into private care on this one, unless as a last resort (ie lack of NHS ICU capacity), and it would be the NHS referring them there. As for his care at the hospital itself. He is the Prime Minister, with all the security concerns that entails. So of course he would be separated. The actual care he would receive though would be no different to that of ANY patient. So for me, neither of these things are an issue, and when it comes to the actual virus, he absolutely is just like the rest of us. That is why he ended up in hospital in the first place. Time will tell though if his own experience changes government policy towards the NHS and public sector in general.

I thought it was a genuine and heartfelt speech ????. And I would hope it leads to a more appreciative line of policy, not just towards NHS workers, but to all those key workers, from the min wage shop workers and drivers, to the refuse collectors and so on. They are the people that really keep everything going in a crisis. I also appreciate that Boris stressed the international contribution to our NHS. After the toxic language of the last three years towards migrants, it was good to finally see some recognition of the huge contribution many of those migrants make. Not sure if that will lead to a similar epiphany from Priti Patel, but we can hope.

Just a note of caution. It hasn't completed any trials yet, so drawing conclusions around how it might be of benefit is a bit premature. Malaria is not a viral condition. It is parasitic, and chloroquine phosphate works by stopping the growth of parasites in the red blood cells. If someone has liver or renal damage, there is a higher risk of side effects and in some people it can cause renal damage. So this is why it possibly won't be helpful to patients with serve symptoms, mainly because one of the worst impacts of COVID19 are those cytokine storms. The French trial stopped because it induced increased heart rates in patients. So how might it help some COVID patients? Studies are looking for RNA suppression. In other words, does chloroquine inhibit the rate of viral RNA increase? And that is where there is some suggestion of effectiveness, up to as much as by 50%. Now while that is not stopping the virus completely, it is significantly reducing the viral load, which then gives the immune system more of a chance of producing the correct amount of antibodies - thereby lowering the risk of both developing more severe symptoms and those cytokine storms. More studies need to carried out, and findings published and peer reviewed before any conclusions can be drawn as absolutes. Dosage is important as well as avoiding risks and side effects. Hydroxychloroquine is more soluble and less toxic and has less side effects than chloroquine phosphate. It also seems to achieve slightly better RNA inhibition rates so that might be where research focuses moving forward. We don't have any tailored treatment at the moment, so anything that works in any way, even if only for a few patients, should be explored and used if safe to do so.

I just watched it. I think it is very good and really explains the science in terms that everyone should be able to understand. Everyone should watch it imo.

Not quite true. The Chinese did make the sale of some wild animals illegal after the first SARS outbreak, but clearly that did not go far enough. It is enforcement that is the issue, even with the complete ban on the farming, sale and consumption of wild animals that China is now seeking to impose. This article highlights the challenge articulately. https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/05/asia/china-coronavirus-wildlife-consumption-ban-intl-hnk/index.html Also worth pointing out that this is not only an issue in China, but parts of Asia generally. And even in the West, we have our own challenges around intensive animal farming. Swine and avian flu pandemics for example, can emerge anywhere as we all farm these animals intensively. So I would argue that we all need to think about our whole approach to animal consumption over the longer term.