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Well said dbboy. I do wonder if some people won't be convinced until there are rows of dead bodies in the streets, with no-one left to collect and bury them. This is what a pandemic looks like. It exponentially creeps, overwhelming health resources and killing larger than average numbers of people in a relatively short time. We are still only at the beginning. The average global pandemic comes in several waves. That more people aren't dying is precisely because of how much we understand about pandemics and the modern resources we have. Even the doctors of 1918, who couldn't actually see a virus under a microscope yet, understood the part that social distancing and PPE play in mitigating spread. The city of Manchester that enforced measures, saw less deaths than the other large cities that followed the government line that deemed keeping factories open (with no preventative measures) for the war effort more important. It is not rocket science. Every time a new virus (or even a known but dangerous one) outbreaks, there is well practised set pattern of procedures that are put into practise. This is because they work! And it is also why countries that have had to deal with public health crisis in the recent past, are better prepared to deal with this one. Asia and parts of Africa already have the trained personnel in place. The West does not. We think we are untouchable. That science will find the answers we need instantly. That pandemics happen somewhere else. That mindset needs to change, and change fast.

Robbie, there is no evidence of any lab trying to 'splice' HIV and any coronavirus. If you knew anything about virology, you would understand how difficult these things are to actually do. 'Off-grain' experimentation, to give it its real name, is extremely dangerous. The SARS Cov2 virus absolutely evolved naturally, from bats (every geneticist in the world agrees with that). Trump is clutching at straws for political reasons. He has an election coming up and his ratings are dropping. He needs to find a way to deflect any blame for the rising death toll from his lack of speed of response to the spread. He knows this is going to be a key Democrat weapon in the election campaign. It is just like Seenbeen trying to defend Trump's lack of understanding about viral biology, even though he has one of the USA's leading epidemiologists trying to explain it to him daily. Disinfectant is a chemical liquid that destroys bacteria, designed entirely for external use. There is NO other definition. Even a five year old knows that. It is not ok for the President of one of the World's superpowers to be so stupid, really it isn't.

This kind of discussion really isn't helpful. No scientist in the world claims the virus is man made, so discussing conspiracy theories around that is pointless. Let's stick to real science and facts, and leave the insane conspiracy stuff to the various youtube channels where it seems to live.

Response as the pandemic hits is one thing, preparedness for the scenario of a pandemic is another. On the former there is room for debate, on the latter none. In spite of an in depth exercise and assessment of the real threat of a global pandemic a few years ago, the government did not address the recommendations, or the areas found lacking from that exercise. For example, it never built up a stockpile of surgical gowns, even though the report apparently identified that as one area in need of addressing. The rumour is that funding for pandemic preparations was funded into no deal Brexit preparations. Who knows what the truth is, but I suspect this will all come out in a subsequent inquiry. There will be real pressure on government to publish any relevant reports, although we are still waiting for the Russia report to be published etc, so transparency I suspect, won't be high in this government's list of priorities, and there may well be need for legal action once again.

Why are you posting an article that regards the real science behind the protein path of viral antigens as some kind of ad hoc defence of President incapable of understanding even basic science? Acknowledge what the rest of the world can see for themselves at least! As for reading books, it is a good job some people do, or you would have no doctor to treat you when you get sick, no engineer to develop new technology, no geneticist to develop stem cell treatments, no chemists to develop vaccines, no movies to watch and so on. Books are about knowledge (and creativity and ideas). Ignorance comes from a lack of knowledge. You can figure out the rest for yourself I hope.

He doesn't read anything. It is claimed he has never read a book ever. Totally far fetched to even argue that reading that Express article would lead someone to conclude disinfectant can be used to fight the virus internally.

It does not matter what Trump said exactly. The point is that he displayed a complete lack of any ability to understand the difference between tackling a virus on a surface, and tackling a virus that has already infected human cells. And he displayed that ignorance in spite of having given his ear for weeks to one of the leading pandemic experts in America! So you have to wonder just how much he actually comprehends about any of it.

Whilst this is true, it is hard to rewrite centuries of generational belief in any country that is still rural in many parts. China is not the only country in the developing world where long standing traditions clash with the modern world. The same can be said of culture clashes within religions too. Education is usually the only way to fix that, and as you say, replacing superstition with science is what needs to happen. And we have our own problems in the Western world too. The rise of belief in conspiracy theories, the rejection of science (even around this pandemic) and experts. The only way to bring everyone up to the same health standards is through a global symbiosis. I find it somewhat ironic, that at a time when nationalism is on the rise, and populism is fashionable, that a global pandemic arrives to force us all to work together again.

fishbiscuits Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > To me, it seems fairly logical that > selling exotic imported wild animals (often > alive), in a crowded fish/meat market is > problematic. No-one disagrees with this. Similarly, packing thousands of chickens, or cows, or pigs, into enclosed barns in close proximity has similar risks. Personally, I think many areas of food production and consumption need looking at. > Also, I'm not inclined to indulge cultural > practices of consuming exotic (sometimes > rare/endangered) animals, or animal parts, for > supposed medicinal purposes. It's a regressive > practice, and endangers wildlife. I see no sense > in pandering to it for the sake of appearing > "woke". Who is pandering to anything? I simply asked a question, around how a country like China, with huge rural areas, would Police what people eat? This is true of many countries were large numbers of people still live off the land, mainly because they are too remote or too poor to live any other way. It is a more difficult issue to address than simply closing wet markets (although that would be a good start).

Pandemics have originated in all continents historically. Spanish Flu for example, it is agreed by most scientists, began in North America, on a pig farm. Avian flu, can emerge anywhere, because birds are migratory. MERS was a zoonotic leap from camels. It is not always the case that unsanitary food production is the source of zoonotic transmission either. Just working around live animals, or being bitten by an animal can start a new strain of virus in humans. On the WHO, you need to understand a bit more about what the WHO actually does. Although it is an extended branch of the UN, It has no power to sanction or dictate policy to any government. China absolutely are at fault for their initial response to something happening in their country. But given that China is a highly secretive communist government, it is harsh to expect any outside organisation to have had knowledge of something until China herself informed them. Not until the virus started appearing outside of China, were the WHO able to receive information that was not written by China. Where a valid criticism can be made regarding the WHO however, is in that it has been too slow in declaring, not just this viral outbreak a pandemic, but also previous outbreaks, like the last Ebola and Swine Flu ones. By your logic, that would make them in the pocket of Guinea and Mexico too! So that is where the WHO needs to look at its own failings. Moving forward, there will be huge international pressure on China to change many things, but it won't be the WHO that can force any change, but an international raft of sanctions and other measures carried out by other governments. It is unrealistic to expect us to live in a pandemic free world, especially given how many of us there now are and how easily we move around the world. The lessons as always, will be in improving detection and response.

Zoonotic viruses can emerge from anywhere seenbeen, where there is intensive contact between animals and people. Where do you think swine flu comes from? We all farm pigs. We live with the risk of new viruses all the time. You also do not always need a vaccine to manage a virus either. Anti-viral drugs do an effective job against some viruses. On food consumption and production, how do you tell an entire nation what they can and can not eat? Bats are the most virus ridden species on the planet, but still, people eat them all across Asia.

I would also recommend SAD lamps to those for whom lack of sunlight affects mood.

Sadly that may well be the case mrwb, especially if the virus regularly mutates in the same way Influenza A does. It is just too early to know yet. We have to remain hopeful that either effective drug treatments or a working vaccine emerge. We have a level of biotech now that scientists could only have dreamed of in 1918. This gives us a better than average chance of finding a way through at some point.

"Britons could be limited to two or three drinks when pubs reopen, a government adviser has suggested." As though this will actually work. It is completely deluded to think that environments where people are able to gather in enclosed spaces can be allowed before this virus is under complete control. The most effective barrier to a second wave, is social distancing and mass testing. So the reopening of business needs to be done with that in mind.

Several things happened. New legislation around employment law and introduction of a min wage. In field mechanised packing vehicles, enabling produce to be delivered straight from the field. A supermarket war driving down wholesale price and driving demand up. This means that workers on farms now need to hit minimum productivity thresholds, often keeping pace with a packing machine in front of them, and as you say, a lot of the work is backbreaking, especially at a required pace.

Even without the current pandemic, an alert would be raised to doctors by the emergence of any unusual factors in patients. Everything starts with a few unusual cases. Pathogens constantly evolve, so there is a constant radar looking for that. It is too early to know what is going on and if it is in any way related to Sars Cov2.

Many farms house seasonal workers in caravans because there just aren't enough people locally to do the work. But there is the added complication now of the virus. How are workers transported to the farms? How are they accommodated? A shortage of seasonal workers was already a developing issue because of Brexit though. The pandemic has just made it worse.

There already seems to be two strains of Covid in circulation, which may be one of the several possible reasons why some people in comparable age groups get mild symptoms and others severe. But the science just does not know yet. It takes time to observe and understand a new pathogen. The only known is that SARS viruses can mutate. With the Spanish Flu pandemic, the subsequent waves drove mutations that began to impact other age groups. Children do not have the abundance of ACE2 receptors that Covid so far has latched onto in adults. But if this virus is already mutating into something else that has different protein coding, then it becomes even more vital that we get find a way to deal with this virus asap.

A lot of that had also to do with their abundance of biotech facilities who began producing test kits immediately and in bulk. One small company alone was able to produce 1.4 million kits in just six weeks. This speed to mass testing was crucial in containment and slowing the rate of spread. We are not without biotech facilities here either. Pharma is our second biggest export to the EU after motor vehicles for example. But for some reason, the UK government delayed before looking for that scaled up production of tests. The USA waited even longer. The outcomes speak for themselves.

The table in your link is 11 years old! There are different grades of pay according experience. The average for top specialists in Germany is around ?120k. In the UK it is around ?140k. The top salary of a GP in Germany is ?78k and ?74K in the UK. So not paid significantly less or more really.

Indeed she did Alan. And that is not a statement based in fact, but an opinion,shaped by what exactly?

seenbeen Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > and other health care professionals who received > free training as midwives, nurses, physios, > nutritionists and then promptly flee into the > private sector. Utter tosh. All of those positions require a degree level of education which the STUDENT pays for through the student loan scheme. Even when bursaries existed, they in no way covered the costs of getting those degrees. Most of those degrees are also done at teaching hospitals. No detail of anything in that article either. The NHS is not the same thing as the Armed services either.

This is why I think Boris made a point of referencing the international diversity of the NHS staff that looked after him. On policy though, I could list many things but take just the nursing bursery for example. Taking that away doesn't help us to get more British nurses trained and into the NHS. So you can not have it both ways. Either you embrace the contribution made by migrant workers in the NHS (and don't bring in silly limits to the starting salary for future migrants, over what any sector actually needs), or you invest properly in training and education, to produce the numbers of young people that not only want to consider a career in the NHS, but (especially when it comes to doctors and nurses) have the talent and passion for science at school level. Also, the other aspect of under resourcing is that NHS personnel are often pushed to the limits of their productivity, often with consequences for their own health and mental wellbeing. These are all things that are worse under Tory governments than they are under Labour ones, as Tory governments tend to squeeze funding in real terms. And as much as everyone is suddenly aware of how hard NHS workers work, and appreciates the risks they are taking, I fear that when this is over, and in the light of the huge public debt that will have to be addressed, that any good will expressed now, will not translate into addressing the things I mention above.

This is precisely why other countries with equal levels of infection and death rates went further. If the breaking of the rules now are leading to an increase in infection rates, we will see that begin to come through in the figures in about two weeks time. Hard to keep people cooped up indoors in hot weather though, especially where people are living in small or crowded households. Government might need to rethink policy. Expecting under resourced police to monitor behaviour is not realistic. There just aren't enough of them.

Whilst she is highly qualified in the area of public health and epidemiology, it is still a government appointment, and there are going to be moments where she tows the government line on policy.