diable rouge

This recent Sunday Times poll throws a little light on the ''Would Scotland be better or worse off''...

Despite the various Gov impact assessments showing an economic downside of No Deal and May's Deal (Johnson's deal hasn't had one but considered between the two), I don't recall many Leave voters being deterred by them... ''What price sovereignty?!'' It's another example that if used by this Vote Leave Gov, it will simply get thrown back in their faces... ''It's a price worth paying!'' #ProjectMcFear...

TheCat Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > While it appears to me (from afar) that there is > of course a more hardcore group of Scottish > independence supports who just want independence > at any cost. It's hard to see how a major issue of > any independence referendum would not be a painted > as a straight up choice between remaining in the > UK or re-joining the EU (at some future point).... The anecdotal evidence I have of Scottish voters backs this up, previous 'No to Indy' voters would now vote 'Yes' if it meant Scotland rejoining the EU. And the timing of the change in the polls would suggest this too, so the Yes camp probably needs to come up with a plan than would realistically enable that. During the 2014 IndyRef the EU was decidely lukewarm to the idea, but that was before Brexit, and as these thoughts from Kirsty Hughes, writer and commentator on Scottish, European & UK politics suggest, the EU will be much more open to the idea and there is a possible route to independence and joining the EU... As SNP set out 11 point plan to indyref, a few comments on route to independence in EU - drawing on in-depth research interviews across many EU member states. There is a clear path to re-joining EU if independence done in legal, constitutional way with agreement Edinburgh-London. There's more understanding of Scottish independence in EU now than in 2014 but also a wide range of views - EU govts do not look at the fragmentation of the UK as positive (UK has caused enough trouble via Brexit) but if Scotland was independent then EU wd be pragmatic. Whether section 30 order or other route to independence, EU member states & Brussels, will be looking for political agreement between Edinburgh & London, an agreed divorce, rUK recognition of iScotland. This is especially important for Spain but for others too. Any plan B needs in the end to bring UK govt to table to agree separation w iScotland. Without initial London agreement to a referendum or other route to indy, then political uncertainty and a rUK-Scotland stand-off likely to develop. EU govts would stand well back from this. In face of valid independence process, iScotland cd apply to EU through normal accession process. If in near(ish) future, & iScotland not diverged too far from meeting EU single mkt criteria & other regs, then process cd be as swift as 4-5 years. iScotland as a 5 million, northern European state, democracy, market economy (& having been in EU for 47 yrs) wd not look technically or politically challenging to EU - more straightforward than W Balkans accession processes tho yes issues include currency, deficit. There will be a transition out of UK, into EU. This wd be managed through a Scotland-EU association agreement. European Economic Area (EEA) is not a transition route but an alternative to EU;EEA membership requires agreement of EU 27 & EEA3 & wd not be available on day 1 of indy. Most recent EU accessions have seen candidates hold referendums on joining EU after they have completed talks w EU. For iScotland, this wd mean those who oppose EU or even EEA membership cd express their views in such a vote.

I thought trinny's thread was about the UK not being able to procure a vaccine early had we still been in the EU, which I know I didn't agree with as there's contingency to do so within EU rules, which Hungary followed. Meanwhile Germany seems to be filling it's boots...https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-buys-extra-coronavirus-vaccine-doses-from-eu-countries/ Anyways, I think this is a pretty good quick appraisee of things from David Henig, a trade expert... The usual reminder to annoy partisans that more than one thing can be true at a time. AstraZeneca can have failed to deliver, the Commission handle it badly and panic, the EU still not be on the verge of collapse, the UK successful on vaccines, and still not guaranteed success.

TheCat Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > It's 'funny' isn't it? If the roles were reversed > and the EU had 10 percent vaccinated and the UK > had just 2-3 percent, and then Boris and co had > decided to act as the EU has in bullying Big > Pharma - the EDF europhiles would be lining up > around the block to take pot shots at the > 'murderous' UK Govt which is desperately trying to > cover up for its incompetence. They would wail > about how Boris has "blood on his hands' and they > would cheer the idea of the govt being sued for > negligence. > > But...I'm just speculating of > course..instead...near silence on the EU failings > from that same group of posters...And when it's > been raised previously it gets dismissed as 'kind > of sick' and not 'serious' to focus on such an > aspect of breaking with the EU.... As flattering as it is to hear how you're missing the 'EDF Europhiles' comments, I'm sorry to disappoint but some of 'us' have a life outside the EDF. I can't speak for anyone else but I see you've quoted Septh, he's big enough to fight his own battles but if you take a quick look at his posting history he hasn't posted for nearly a week, so I expect he's taking a break. As for myself, the first I heard about the EU invoking A16 was last night when it was mentioned during the Last Leg, then when I checked the news this morning it had all blown over. It doesn't cover up that the EU screwed up by doing that, especially with not consulting Dublin beforehand, but they saw the error of their ways and quickly withdrew, something I would've had little confidence in this Gov doing, witness the Internal Markets Bill. A couple of weeks ago Johnson himself said he would invoke A16 if he needed to, so there's not much of a moral high ground to stand on in that respect... https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/watch-we-will-have-no-hesitation-in-triggering-article-16-if-necessary-says-boris-johnson-39964412.html As for 'vaccine nationalism', I've already made my opinion known and I echo what Spartacus has said in that there's little to be gained by one country having a speedy and successful vaccination programme if other countries don't and it gives the virus a chance to mutate and make current vaccination efficacy obsolete. One of the reasons why the EU wanted to go down the collective vaccination route was so that the smaller EU countries had just as much access to vaccines as the big hitters, and that's to be applauded. A pandemic is global and needs global solutions...

Click on 'share' tab below YouTube video, then click on embed tab, copy address, then paste it into EDF text box...

Week 19 fixtures... Saturday 30th January Everton v Newcastle United Crystal Palace v Wolverhampton Wanderers Manchester City v Sheffield United West Bromwich Albion v Fulham Arsenal v Manchester United Southampton v Aston Villa Sunday 31st January Chelsea v Burnley Leicester City v Leeds United West Ham United v Liverpool Brighton & Hove Albion v Tottenham Hotspur Tuesday 2nd February Sheffield United v West Bromwich Albion Wolverhampton Wanderers v Arsenal Manchester United v Southampton Newcastle United v Crystal Palace Wednesday 3rd February Burnley v Manchester City Fulham v Leicester City Leeds United v Everton Aston Villa v West Ham United Liverpool v Brighton & Hove Albion Thursday 4th February Tottenham Hotspur v Chelsea

Week 18 points... Week 18 table...

Burt Sugarman's Midnight Special :)...

Right on cue... I believe in the power of doing things together! Boris Johnson, speaking in Scotland, ignoring the fact that he's just taken the UK out of the EU

One man's proboscis is another man's prostate...

KidKruger Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > They have no sovereignty they probably feel. One of the problems that the Pro-Union side has, is that some of the 'benefits' of leaving the EU that were trumpeted by Johnson/Vote Leave, can also be thrown back at them by the Indies...

Seeing polls saying 60+% of Tory voters were prepared for the break-up of the Union if it meant delivering Brexit, didn't go down well...

There's that lack of self-awareness again...:)

Keep plugging away Spartacus, as I said before, you're now embarrassing yourself...

TheCat Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > diable rouge Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Spartacus Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > > > it was you who called me "Stupidcus" yet I've > > > never resorted to calling you names > > > > Well, if you insist on posting stupid comments. > > How's your 'state sponsored genocide' plan > > going?... > > DR, there does seem to be quite prevalent attitude > on here along the lines of "well if someone says > something 'stupid' they're going to get 'called > out' for it" (not your words (that I've seen), to > be fair)....but is that really how we collectively > want the vibe of this forum to be? SO people are > hesitant to express a view? When people feel > attacked for saying what they think, their > inclination will be to 'dig in/double > down'...whereas if they feel there is a decent two > way street, then they may concede certain points > and end up softening their view anyway. That assumes that a poster is inclined to soften their view. I'm not sure that's the case with some posters. If you look at the 'Deniers' thread I did exactly that and he double downed. > And who is the arbiter of a 'stupid'? comment > anyway? Perhaps trying to understand why someone > has said something that you think is 'stupid' > might be a more productive use of keystrokes? I understood what he said, and indeed kept saying. Context is everything...

Well, I certainly wouldn't advocate what you said, instead I think education is the key, but as KK has pointed out, you will always get a hardcore that won't have the vaccine for whatever reason, I'm afraid that goes with the territory of a modern, functioning democracy. The question is what level of take-up is required to make the anti-vaxxers irrelevant/redundant? Do we actually need 100% take-up? We already have a high percentage of people who are happy to have the vaccine compared to a lot of other countries, from memory in the low 80's, and I'd expect that to go higher. Also, what are the conditions that cause a virus to mutate? I'm sorry, you making me PM doesn't give me special powers to answer that, but I read somewhere that one reason could be the heavy viral loads that built-up when the schools and universities went back [insert criticism of another Gov failure here], which if the case could mean it's unlikely that the anti-vaxxers would cause a mutation themselves as they are a dispersed grouping, what with them tapping away on their keyboards all day and night in their 'command centre'. Regardless, I'd listen to the science and follow it, something this Gov has failed to do, most notably prior to this deadly third wave. And as an aside, there's no point the UK having a successful vaccine take-up if other countries don't, it needs to be a global effort, so 'vaccine nationalism' can fook right off. So, vote DR for a brighter, happier future, and more importantly the banning of Spartacus' corny jokes...

Spartacus Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > it was you who called me "Stupidcus" yet I've > never resorted to calling you names Well, if you insist on posting stupid comments. How's your 'state sponsored genocide' plan going?...

Spartacus, get a grip, you're embarrassing yourself...

100...

Spartacus Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Reaching a middle ground involves talking, > listening and compromise on both sides otherwise > it becomes a place of toxicity. The lack of self-awareness is strong in this one...

Ah, trying to move the goalposts now are we Spartacus? Your earlier post quite clearly stated that those that don't have the vaccine shouldn't get any medical treatment, and when I questioned why some might not want to take it, you said they would have to be educated and if failing that, reiterated they shouldn't receive medical treatment. That has serious consequences, resulting in many simply being left to die. People will draw their own conclusions as to whether they think you're in favour, or not, of a form of 'state sponsored genocide'...

Imagine the scene, autumn 2021. Many of the tens of thousands of people who refused to have a vaccine have ultimately caught Covid. Coughing and spluttering away they could at first be forgiven for having an early seasonal cold, but the biometric 'Covid Star' tattooed onto the back of their hand is a give-away. Not entitled to any medical treatment as part of the glorious leader's 'solution', they try and go about their daily business as normal, but their is no sanctuary. Their homes are daubed with graffiti, and when they dare to venture outside, passers-by frown at them and cross the road, making sure to avoid eye contact. Some hurl insults, reminding them that it's only a matter of time before they are rounded up and sent to the 'holding-camps', that only 6 months earlier had been re-education facilities, in the vain hope that they could be convinced to have the vaccine. At least this way the public don't have to witness as their condition worsens, doctors and nurses won't have to wrestle with their conscience when some manage to break through a hospital's security cordon, banging on windows in a vain attempt to get help. No one has to worry about a sick relative, friend, or neighbour. Or seeing someone suffering a slow, painful death, and having to witness their last dying gasps of breath. After all, they had it coming to them...

Spartacus Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > After all they don't believe Covid exists or think > it's a government conspiracy so they won't catch > it so won't need treatment What about those that are genuinely worried about possible side effects, is it safe etc?...