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Voting to remain

Bob Buzzard

By Bob Buzzard
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Bob Buzzard

Bob Buzzard

Posted
  • Author
Posted

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I am not planning on leaving East Dulwich if

> that's what you mean !



Yes - that's it - let's have a referendum on whether we should leave ED or not - Louisa - what are your thoughts on this?

Loz

Loz

Posted
Posted

I'm voting in. No one has yet suggested a reason to leave that isn't either


a) utterly cloud cuckoo land thinking (e.g. leaving will give us more democracy AND save the steel industry!!)


or


b) looks like something that might be good, until you realise it has a really bad side they're not telling you about (e.g. we get to close our borders! What do you mean that everyone will do the same to us which will make travelling/working outside the UK much harder and our primary export - service industries - will probably be massively hit?)


It just all seems a huge leap of (bad) faith with no real promise of anything good.

Louisa

Louisa

Posted
Posted

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm voting in. No one has yet suggested a reason

> to leave that isn't either

>

> a) utterly cloud cuckoo land thinking (e.g.

> leaving will give us more democracy AND save the

> steel industry!!)

>

> or

>

> b) looks like something that might be good, until

> you realise it has a really bad side they're not

> telling you about (e.g. we get to close our

> borders! What do you mean that everyone will do

> the same to us which will make travelling/working

> outside the UK much harder and our primary export

> - service industries - will probably be massively

> hit?)

>

> It just all seems a huge leap of (bad) faith with

> no real promise of anything good.



Loz and to counteract those arguments you just stated


1) how did this nation survive for the previous 1000 years before the EU existed and;


2) surely remaining in the EU is also a complete leap in the dark what with the refugee crisis, the Greek debt situation to name but a few things


Louisa.

Loz

Loz

Posted
Posted

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Loz and to counteract those arguments you just stated

>

> 1) how did this nation survive for the previous 1000 years before the EU existed and;


Well, obviously it survived and at no stage did I suggest it wouldn't survive if we left. But would it be any better off? Or would it be worse off?


And also, Louisa, how many wars in Europe did we have in that 1000 years? Even you must admit the EU has helped keep the peace.


> 2) surely remaining in the EU is also a complete leap in the dark what with the refugee crisis, the

> Greek debt situation to name but a few things


Considering there is no planned EU-wide resolution to the refugee crisis, I think I can safely say that things will be absolutely no different, whatever the result. Ditto Greece. So file both those under (a), above, if you think leaving will change anything regarding those.

EDOldie

EDOldie

Posted
Posted
I think that there's absolutely no chance of us leaving as the vote doesn't stack up. Virtually the whole of Scotland, Wales and Cornwall will be voting to stay as will most of London and probably a great deal of England will vote to stay in as well. But, don't take my word for it have a look at what the bookies say, the odds are 4/9 to stay and 2/1 to leave. Good idea for an independent ED, I'd vote for that.
Michael Palaeologus

Michael Palaeologus

Posted
Posted

In.


Whats happened in the past 1000 years or so?


Invasions from Rome, then Scandinavia, then Normandy mostly. After that, pan-European wars and a British Empire thankfully long gone.


Does Europe make us less democratic? Pick your model, but not really.


Those that want to leave seem to be either romantic lovers of Empire or egotistical control-freaks.

Seabag

Seabag

Posted
Posted

Michael Palaeologus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In.

>

> Whats happened in the past 1000 years or so?

>

> Invasions from Rome, then Scandinavia, then

> Normandy mostly. After that, pan-European wars and

> a British Empire thankfully long gone.

>

> Does Europe make us less democratic? Pick your

> model, but not really.

>

> Those that want to leave seem to be either

> romantic lovers of Empire or egotistical

> control-freaks.


And what would happen to curry nite


It might end up as 'foreign food' supper time

Louisa

Louisa

Posted
Posted

Michael Palaeologus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In.

>

> Whats happened in the past 1000 years or so?

>

> Invasions from Rome, then Scandinavia, then

> Normandy mostly. After that, pan-European wars and

> a British Empire thankfully long gone.

>

> Does Europe make us less democratic? Pick your

> model, but not really.

>

> Those that want to leave seem to be either

> romantic lovers of Empire or egotistical

> control-freaks.


How can you possibly say Europe doesn't make us less democratic? This union bankrupted Greece and made unsavoury demands of their government to repay a debt which they're never likely to be able to pay. I'd call that a pretty undemocratic demand of a sovreign state, wouldn't you? And you suggest the 'outs' are being romantic? Funniest comment I've read on this topic.


Ps I am not a lover of empire not am I an "egotistical control freak", more I am a lover of freedom of destiny and democracy, two things the EU wouldn't know not understand if they bit it one on the backside!


Louisa.

Loz

Loz

Posted
Posted

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> How can you possibly say Europe doesn't make us less democratic?


Well, considering of our top three UK legislative levels of government, two of them are unelected, so we nationally we only elect 33% of our legislative layers of government. The EU is comprised of two legislative levels: EU Parliament (Elected) and the EU Council (unelected). So, adding them in makes 2 of 5 now elected. Therefore taking both national and EU legislature together, we now actually elect 40% of our legislative layers of government.


But, that's actually the worst way of looking at it. The EU Council is more like the UK Cabinet, since it comprised of 1 member per national government. So you could even make that percentage 2/4 = 50% (if, like the Cabinet, you don't count it) or 3/5 = 60% (if you consider it elected by extension of elected national governments).


Therefore, quite provably, the EU has made us more democratic. And that's because the UK legislative government is so completely undemocratic to start with.


QED.


You might also want to consider that, of the single layer of the UK legislature we do get to elect, we use possibly one of the most undemocratic election systems possible - First Past the Post.

Loz

Loz

Posted
Posted

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> On a lighter side.. Brussels having control over the U.K. Is like having the In-laws controlling

> your marriage..


On that basis, Wales, NI and Scotland could take the same view about the UK.


And probably Manchester, Leeds and Liverpool about London.

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