Jump to content

Voting to remain

Bob Buzzard

By Bob Buzzard
in The Lounge

 Share

Recommended Posts

Bob Buzzard

Bob Buzzard

Posted
  • Author
Posted

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I am not planning on leaving East Dulwich if

> that's what you mean !



Yes - that's it - let's have a referendum on whether we should leave ED or not - Louisa - what are your thoughts on this?

Loz

Loz

Posted
Posted

I'm voting in. No one has yet suggested a reason to leave that isn't either


a) utterly cloud cuckoo land thinking (e.g. leaving will give us more democracy AND save the steel industry!!)


or


b) looks like something that might be good, until you realise it has a really bad side they're not telling you about (e.g. we get to close our borders! What do you mean that everyone will do the same to us which will make travelling/working outside the UK much harder and our primary export - service industries - will probably be massively hit?)


It just all seems a huge leap of (bad) faith with no real promise of anything good.

Louisa

Louisa

Posted
Posted

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm voting in. No one has yet suggested a reason

> to leave that isn't either

>

> a) utterly cloud cuckoo land thinking (e.g.

> leaving will give us more democracy AND save the

> steel industry!!)

>

> or

>

> b) looks like something that might be good, until

> you realise it has a really bad side they're not

> telling you about (e.g. we get to close our

> borders! What do you mean that everyone will do

> the same to us which will make travelling/working

> outside the UK much harder and our primary export

> - service industries - will probably be massively

> hit?)

>

> It just all seems a huge leap of (bad) faith with

> no real promise of anything good.



Loz and to counteract those arguments you just stated


1) how did this nation survive for the previous 1000 years before the EU existed and;


2) surely remaining in the EU is also a complete leap in the dark what with the refugee crisis, the Greek debt situation to name but a few things


Louisa.

Loz

Loz

Posted
Posted

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Loz and to counteract those arguments you just stated

>

> 1) how did this nation survive for the previous 1000 years before the EU existed and;


Well, obviously it survived and at no stage did I suggest it wouldn't survive if we left. But would it be any better off? Or would it be worse off?


And also, Louisa, how many wars in Europe did we have in that 1000 years? Even you must admit the EU has helped keep the peace.


> 2) surely remaining in the EU is also a complete leap in the dark what with the refugee crisis, the

> Greek debt situation to name but a few things


Considering there is no planned EU-wide resolution to the refugee crisis, I think I can safely say that things will be absolutely no different, whatever the result. Ditto Greece. So file both those under (a), above, if you think leaving will change anything regarding those.

EDOldie

EDOldie

Posted
Posted
I think that there's absolutely no chance of us leaving as the vote doesn't stack up. Virtually the whole of Scotland, Wales and Cornwall will be voting to stay as will most of London and probably a great deal of England will vote to stay in as well. But, don't take my word for it have a look at what the bookies say, the odds are 4/9 to stay and 2/1 to leave. Good idea for an independent ED, I'd vote for that.
Michael Palaeologus

Michael Palaeologus

Posted
Posted

In.


Whats happened in the past 1000 years or so?


Invasions from Rome, then Scandinavia, then Normandy mostly. After that, pan-European wars and a British Empire thankfully long gone.


Does Europe make us less democratic? Pick your model, but not really.


Those that want to leave seem to be either romantic lovers of Empire or egotistical control-freaks.

Seabag

Seabag

Posted
Posted

Michael Palaeologus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In.

>

> Whats happened in the past 1000 years or so?

>

> Invasions from Rome, then Scandinavia, then

> Normandy mostly. After that, pan-European wars and

> a British Empire thankfully long gone.

>

> Does Europe make us less democratic? Pick your

> model, but not really.

>

> Those that want to leave seem to be either

> romantic lovers of Empire or egotistical

> control-freaks.


And what would happen to curry nite


It might end up as 'foreign food' supper time

Louisa

Louisa

Posted
Posted

Michael Palaeologus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> In.

>

> Whats happened in the past 1000 years or so?

>

> Invasions from Rome, then Scandinavia, then

> Normandy mostly. After that, pan-European wars and

> a British Empire thankfully long gone.

>

> Does Europe make us less democratic? Pick your

> model, but not really.

>

> Those that want to leave seem to be either

> romantic lovers of Empire or egotistical

> control-freaks.


How can you possibly say Europe doesn't make us less democratic? This union bankrupted Greece and made unsavoury demands of their government to repay a debt which they're never likely to be able to pay. I'd call that a pretty undemocratic demand of a sovreign state, wouldn't you? And you suggest the 'outs' are being romantic? Funniest comment I've read on this topic.


Ps I am not a lover of empire not am I an "egotistical control freak", more I am a lover of freedom of destiny and democracy, two things the EU wouldn't know not understand if they bit it one on the backside!


Louisa.

Loz

Loz

Posted
Posted

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> How can you possibly say Europe doesn't make us less democratic?


Well, considering of our top three UK legislative levels of government, two of them are unelected, so we nationally we only elect 33% of our legislative layers of government. The EU is comprised of two legislative levels: EU Parliament (Elected) and the EU Council (unelected). So, adding them in makes 2 of 5 now elected. Therefore taking both national and EU legislature together, we now actually elect 40% of our legislative layers of government.


But, that's actually the worst way of looking at it. The EU Council is more like the UK Cabinet, since it comprised of 1 member per national government. So you could even make that percentage 2/4 = 50% (if, like the Cabinet, you don't count it) or 3/5 = 60% (if you consider it elected by extension of elected national governments).


Therefore, quite provably, the EU has made us more democratic. And that's because the UK legislative government is so completely undemocratic to start with.


QED.


You might also want to consider that, of the single layer of the UK legislature we do get to elect, we use possibly one of the most undemocratic election systems possible - First Past the Post.

Loz

Loz

Posted
Posted

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> On a lighter side.. Brussels having control over the U.K. Is like having the In-laws controlling

> your marriage..


On that basis, Wales, NI and Scotland could take the same view about the UK.


And probably Manchester, Leeds and Liverpool about London.

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share
Go to topic listing
  • Advertise Here

  • Latest Discussions

    • malumbu
      Are we now under a flight path?

      By malumbu · Posted

      Unless we don't fly I don't think we can be too critical of the authorities.  
    • Forest Hill Climber
      Are we now under a flight path?

      By Forest Hill Climber · Posted

      In 2016 London City Airport began using concentrated flight paths. When there's a predominantly westerly wind, incoming aircraft approach from East London (north of the River). When there's a predominantly Easterly wind, incoming aircraft approach the airport from the West: circling through Forest Hill, Dulwich, Vauxhall, Tower Hamlets, Docklands. This latter flight path affects many of us in South East London. https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/what-london-assembly-does/questions-mayor/find-an-answer/london-city-airport-concentrated-flight-paths The planes going into City are often below 2,000 ft, so very noisy. Sometimes we have incoming Heathrow at the same time, flying higher. The early flights that I hear e.g. 04:30 are incoming to Heathrow. They are scheduled to land at 05:30 but are 'early'. Apparently the government allows a percentage of flights to arrive early and late (but these are now established as regular occurrences, informally part of the schedule). IMHO Londoners are getting very poor political representation on this issue. Incredible that if you want to complain about aircraft noise, you're supposed to contact the airport concerned! Preposterous and designed solely in favour of aviation expansion.
    • DulwichParker
      Local plumber and gas engineer - Jafar - Portrait Plumbing

      By DulwichParker · Posted

      Yet another recommendation for Jafar. Such a nice guy, really reliable and fair. He fixed a problem with our boiler and then incredibly kindly made two more visits to replace a different part at no extra cost. 
    • Sue Klein
      Are we now under a flight path?

      By Sue Klein · Posted

      I didn't have any problems with plane noise until city airport started flying planes to and from about 5-8 minutes apart from 5.30 am or  6 am,  and even with ear plugs and double glazing I am woken at about 6 well before I usually would wake  up. I have lived here since 1986 and it is relatively recently that the planes have been flying far too low over East dulwich. I very much doubt that they are headinbg to Heathrow or from Heathrow. As the crow flies we are much , MUCH closer to City Airport than Heathrow or Gatwick. I even saw one flying so low you could see all the windows, when I was in Peckham Rye Park.

East Dulwich Forum

Established in 2006, we are an online community discussion forum for people who live, work in and visit SE22.

Home
Events
Sign In

Sign In



Or sign in with one of these services

Search
×
    Search In
×
×
  • Create New...