Voting to remain

[Bob Buzzard]

I presume everyone in ED will be voting to remain as there are no 'kippers' there.

[Blah Blah]

I'm an 'IN' vote.

[TheArtfulDogger]

I am not planning on leaving East Dulwich if that's what you mean !

[j94NUFC]

Nope, voting to leave.

[KalamityKel]

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

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> I am not planning on leaving East Dulwich if

> that's what you mean !

Phew! ;-)

[Bob Buzzard]

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

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> I am not planning on leaving East Dulwich if

> that's what you mean !

Yes - that's it - let's have a referendum on whether we should leave ED or not - Louisa - what are your thoughts on this?

[Salsaboy]

Out. And proud.

[Loz]

Salsaboy Wrote:

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> Out. And proud.

What you do on the weekend is your own business.

[uncleglen]

Out for definite....

[Louisa]

I'm voting out, for reasons I previously stated. We cannot achieve anything close to democracy if we remain. I would also quite like to see a republic and a totally elected second chamber of parliament but we can't have everything in this world can we?

Louisa.

[Bob Buzzard]

A Republic of East Dulwich? Elected second chamber - yes I like that - could have PR for that so there is fair representation of people's voting patterns. On the EU I'm in and out for ED.

[Loz]

I'm voting in. No one has yet suggested a reason to leave that isn't either

a) utterly cloud cuckoo land thinking (e.g. leaving will give us more democracy AND save the steel industry!!)

or

b) looks like something that might be good, until you realise it has a really bad side they're not telling you about (e.g. we get to close our borders! What do you mean that everyone will do the same to us which will make travelling/working outside the UK much harder and our primary export - service industries - will probably be massively hit?)

It just all seems a huge leap of (bad) faith with no real promise of anything good.

[Louisa]

Loz Wrote:

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> I'm voting in. No one has yet suggested a reason

> to leave that isn't either

>

> a) utterly cloud cuckoo land thinking (e.g.

> leaving will give us more democracy AND save the

> steel industry!!)

>

> or

>

> b) looks like something that might be good, until

> you realise it has a really bad side they're not

> telling you about (e.g. we get to close our

> borders! What do you mean that everyone will do

> the same to us which will make travelling/working

> outside the UK much harder and our primary export

> - service industries - will probably be massively

> hit?)

>

> It just all seems a huge leap of (bad) faith with

> no real promise of anything good.

Loz and to counteract those arguments you just stated

1) how did this nation survive for the previous 1000 years before the EU existed and;

2) surely remaining in the EU is also a complete leap in the dark what with the refugee crisis, the Greek debt situation to name but a few things

Louisa.

[Loz]

Louisa Wrote:

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>

> Loz and to counteract those arguments you just stated

>

> 1) how did this nation survive for the previous 1000 years before the EU existed and;

Well, obviously it survived and at no stage did I suggest it wouldn't survive if we left. But would it be any better off? Or would it be worse off?

And also, Louisa, how many wars in Europe did we have in that 1000 years? Even you must admit the EU has helped keep the peace.

> 2) surely remaining in the EU is also a complete leap in the dark what with the refugee crisis, the

> Greek debt situation to name but a few things

Considering there is no planned EU-wide resolution to the refugee crisis, I think I can safely say that things will be absolutely no different, whatever the result. Ditto Greece. So file both those under (a), above, if you think leaving will change anything regarding those.

[Seabag]

I like being part of Europe, very much

I'd personally move to Holland if the 'out' vote comes

[Jules-and-Boo]

leaving and packing my bags as we speak.

[EDOldie]

I think that there's absolutely no chance of us leaving as the vote doesn't stack up. Virtually the whole of Scotland, Wales and Cornwall will be voting to stay as will most of London and probably a great deal of England will vote to stay in as well. But, don't take my word for it have a look at what the bookies say, the odds are 4/9 to stay and 2/1 to leave. Good idea for an independent ED, I'd vote for that.

[Michael Palaeologus]

In.

Whats happened in the past 1000 years or so?

Invasions from Rome, then Scandinavia, then Normandy mostly. After that, pan-European wars and a British Empire thankfully long gone.

Does Europe make us less democratic? Pick your model, but not really.

Those that want to leave seem to be either romantic lovers of Empire or egotistical control-freaks.

[Seabag]

Michael Palaeologus Wrote:

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> In.

>

> Whats happened in the past 1000 years or so?

>

> Invasions from Rome, then Scandinavia, then

> Normandy mostly. After that, pan-European wars and

> a British Empire thankfully long gone.

>

> Does Europe make us less democratic? Pick your

> model, but not really.

>

> Those that want to leave seem to be either

> romantic lovers of Empire or egotistical

> control-freaks.

And what would happen to curry nite

It might end up as 'foreign food' supper time

[Louisa]

Michael Palaeologus Wrote:

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> In.

>

> Whats happened in the past 1000 years or so?

>

> Invasions from Rome, then Scandinavia, then

> Normandy mostly. After that, pan-European wars and

> a British Empire thankfully long gone.

>

> Does Europe make us less democratic? Pick your

> model, but not really.

>

> Those that want to leave seem to be either

> romantic lovers of Empire or egotistical

> control-freaks.

How can you possibly say Europe doesn't make us less democratic? This union bankrupted Greece and made unsavoury demands of their government to repay a debt which they're never likely to be able to pay. I'd call that a pretty undemocratic demand of a sovreign state, wouldn't you? And you suggest the 'outs' are being romantic? Funniest comment I've read on this topic.

Ps I am not a lover of empire not am I an "egotistical control freak", more I am a lover of freedom of destiny and democracy, two things the EU wouldn't know not understand if they bit it one on the backside!

Louisa.

[Loz]

Louisa Wrote:

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> How can you possibly say Europe doesn't make us less democratic?

Well, considering of our top three UK legislative levels of government, two of them are unelected, so we nationally we only elect 33% of our legislative layers of government. The EU is comprised of two legislative levels: EU Parliament (Elected) and the EU Council (unelected). So, adding them in makes 2 of 5 now elected. Therefore taking both national and EU legislature together, we now actually elect 40% of our legislative layers of government.

But, that's actually the worst way of looking at it. The EU Council is more like the UK Cabinet, since it comprised of 1 member per national government. So you could even make that percentage 2/4 = 50% (if, like the Cabinet, you don't count it) or 3/5 = 60% (if you consider it elected by extension of elected national governments).

Therefore, quite provably, the EU has made us more democratic. And that's because the UK legislative government is so completely undemocratic to start with.

QED.

You might also want to consider that, of the single layer of the UK legislature we do get to elect, we use possibly one of the most undemocratic election systems possible - First Past the Post.

[Alex K]

"I am a lover of freedom of destiny".

Well, Louisa, how does one manage that -- with destiny being a you-can't-change-it you-can't-evade-it fate?

"Freedom of destiny". Even for the EDF, that is extraordinary piffle.

[DulwichFox]

On a lighter side.. Brussels having control over the U.K. Is like having the In-laws controlling your marriage..

Foxy..

[Loz]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> On a lighter side.. Brussels having control over the U.K. Is like having the In-laws controlling

> your marriage..

On that basis, Wales, NI and Scotland could take the same view about the UK.

And probably Manchester, Leeds and Liverpool about London.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I have heard so many Brexiters with completely different (and contradictory) visions of what 'out' would mean for the UK. This for me is a big problem.