Stunned

[tasha1]

Scotland will hold another referendum very soon, I reckon. All those living in Scotland, voted to remain. If they hold another referendum, they would surely have a majority vote now. Also, the promise of the additional spending on the NHS (which was the main promise for Brexit) was not true. Apparently it was a 'mistake' , despite being on all the advertisement vans. This was stated only only one hour after the votes had been counted!

In terms of immigration, most people who settle here are from outside the EU, not from the EU. Leaving the EU will have no impact on migrants from outside. France could potentially relinquish responsibility for preventing migrants in Calais travelling over to the Uk. Therefore, there will actually be less control over movement and the boarders with Ireland will remain open. Anyone wanting to come to The UK will still be able to do so fairly easily. I'm actually all for freedom of movement and we are dependant on people to come to the UK who are both skilled (eg hospital staff), as well as unskilled. My point is that if people voted on the basis of wanting to have more control over immigration, they are t going to get what they thought they were voting for. That's my opinion though and others will differ.

[Jeremy]

tasha1 Wrote:

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> All those living in Scotland, voted to remain.

Scotland was 62%/38%... conclusive, but not the whitewash some seem to think...

[miga]

Think you might be preaching to the choir tasha1. But, surely even those who voted Leave are well aware that there was no commitment whatsoever to reducing the numbers of immigrants. I mean, you'd have to be an idiot to think that a vote to Leave was a vote to reduce numbers of immigrants. Even the Leave campaign made no such claim.

[Zebedee Tring]

One big difference between the 1975 and 2016 referenda was that in 1975 the whole of the national press (apart from the Morning Star) was in favour of remaining in the EEC whereas in 2016 most of the papers were in favour of Brexit. So the people who will most suffer from Brexit, i.e. the poorest people in the country and in particular those living in areas that actually voted for Brexit, were fed with a continual succession of lies about the 70 million Turks who were about to arrive on our shores at any minute and the ?350 million that would be pumped into the NHS etc etc. And sadly they believed what they read.

[DulwichFox]

Declare London independent from the UK.. and apply to join the EU.

Then Declare East Dulwich independent from the London..and apply to leave the EU.

Then Declare EDF Forumites independent of East Dulwich and apply to join the E.U.

Then individual members of The EDF can apply to Leave the E.U.

Perhaps all People could have individual membership of the E.U. Say like you pay ?5,000 a year for membership.

and then get all the benifits .. like free unrestricted travel. and err.. um .all the other benifits.

Foxy

[miga]

Sounds good DF. I'd also like to opt out of paying effectively half my income for other people's healthcare, roads they use, schools for their kids, pensions for the oldies etc. I mean, for the amount I'm taxed, I could send both my kids to fancy private schools and pay top notch private insurance for health, pension etc. and still be better off....I'd especially like to stop paying any tax to the economically deprived areas that voted to Leave.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

We don't need to divide further beyond London, Foxy. The majority of people here are sensible.

[aerie]

civilservant Wrote:

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> why all this talk of separatism and wall-building?

> that's the province of the Out-ers.

> the EU was (is) about bringing down borders and

> allowing free movement and free trade. People

> like these for themselves but not for others - it

> was a selfish vote.

>

> so sorry to hear about your predicament, Working

> Mummy. there are many paradoxes - I've also got

> several European in-laws with British families who

> live and work and pay taxes in this country who

> weren't able to vote, unlike UK expats who could

> and may have even voted 'Out'. we can only wait

> and see how things work out for them and their

> families.

I cannot imagine that ex pats in Europe would vote 'out' as many of them have a hard enough time as it is beaurocratically, they really would be shooting themselves in the foot. (much bandied idiom today)

[heartblock]

We gave the EU ?350M a week which was the given back to many of the regions that voted out, basically spreading the wealth from London to the regions - if you think for one second Boris or Gove will and can do this you are living in a dream world and as the financial markets are now damaged by 'leave' it's unlikely there will be any spare cash for the NHS or poorer regions. I think Boris looked worried.......

[Otta]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> tasha1 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > All those living in Scotland, voted to remain.

>

> Scotland was 62%/38%... conclusive, but not the

> whitewash some seem to think...

^^^ This

Fed up with this whole Scottish thing, SNP using it to drive the only agenda they really give a shit about. If it's democratically unacceptable for Scotland who voted in to be dragged out, then it's democratically unacceptable for any other place in the UK (because that's what Scotland voted to be last year) to be dragged out.

[miga]

Well - not quite Otta - the level of self government Scotland has compared to e.g. Lewisham is quite high.

[Jah Lush]

[Louisa]

Isn't democracy a great thing? Scotland had a vote a few years back, decided to stay. The Scottish Government was then re-elected with a decent mandate this year (legitimacy), and that government then decided to use this referendum result to table a second referendum. I love our democracy, I love how it works, and I love how the bureaucrats in the EU are forced to eat their words following some sanctimonious posturing over the last few days to scare the people into continuing to line their autocratic pockets. If Scotland wants another referendum let them have it!

Louisa.

[Jeremy]

heartblock Wrote:

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> We gave the EU ?350M a week which was the given

> back to many of the regions that voted out,

> basically spreading the wealth from London to the regions

Yeah... but some of the areas that have really benefitted (I'm thinking specifically about Liverpool) voted conclusively to remain. It's not just London vs everyone else.

[WorkingMummy]

Yes. It is not just London v everyone else and we must hold onto that.

[WorkingMummy]

They won't be eating their words. They cannot possibly afford to give a generous article 50 divorce settlement to the UK with Le Pen and other fragmentalist nationalists lining up.

The cards are all the EU's now. The only control we have is over when we say "now" on article 50. Following that, the cards and the timetable are all theirs.

And article 50 doesn't even begin to address the notional trade deals leave promised (which ALL remaining EU states would need to say yes to for us to get).

In other words, after the divorce, we ask for a new relationship. And we just gave Romaniana, Greece, Italy, each and every EU state, a complete VETO on whether we even get a new deal, let alone it's terms.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

Exactly. It would be political suicide for Europe to be anything other than tough on us.

I wonder how many of the people who voted out were the same that were sneery about the SNP when they said they would get the deal the wanted with Europe.

[midivydale]

Heartbreaking day. I can not help but feel that the country that I lived, loved worked and paid taxes in for 20 years do not want me or the likes of me here. The Britain I have always loved, clearly is no longer. I have no idea what this means for our family.I am distraught.

[LondonMix]

Sorry midivydale. If it's any consolation, your neighbours don't feel that way. South ?London had some of the highest remain votes in the country

[WorkingMummy]

midivydale Wrote:

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> Heartbreaking day. I can not help but feel that

> the country that I lived, loved worked and paid

> taxes in for 20 years do not want me or the likes

> of me here. The Britain I have always loved,

> clearly is no longer. I have no idea what this

> means for our family.I am distraught.

I empathise. I do not know what to say. Other than most of your immediate neighbours do not feel what the slim majority of the U.k overall apparently feels. A lovely EDer (and immigrant) was consoling me as we walked our dogs this morning as I cried for the future of my dual nationality children and their single nationality immigrant father. And we are very worried about his job relocating to Brussels or Frankfut - it is hard to see how it won't.

[Louisa]

A decision has been made. It may not be what you want, but that's democracy. We are a United Kingdom and we voted as such, all those irrelevant arguments about Scotland and London being "dragged out" against its wishes are not relevant here. They (Scotland) voted to remain in the UK two years ago, London is the capital of the entire UK, BOTH regions should accept that at a national referendum level they have lost in this democratic process and have NO direct say as a region, that's life unfortunantely.

As for the UK's chances of receiving a generous deal, why are all the experts jumping to conclusions on this. None of us are at the negotiating table, we have no idea what sort of deal we are going to be given. It may be generous it may not, we have nothing to judge this by. No other nation has exited the EU and/or been forced to renegotiate terms of trade. Let's wait and see please.

Louisa.

[LondonMix]

Louisa I think people are judging it based on what the parties who would have to grant the deal are saying publicly and why.

working Mummy, sorry your partners job and legal status are at risk. I hope it all works out for your family

[WorkingMummy]

Thank you LM. That is nice to hear. He is not my partner but he is a much loved father and co-parent.

I have to say our neighbours are being great.

[Louisa]

LM with respect, the 'people' who are at the heart of any 'deal' for this country, are not people I personally will be paying much notice to. The likes of Jean-Claude Juncker, who had the audacity for a last minute intervention yesterday to say "out means out", followed by "make it quick", and then in a press conference today in response to a British journalist asking if this was the "beginning of the end for the EU", a moments silence followed by an abrupt "no" and flounce off stage. This man, and his ilk, summarise perfectly for me and all those who voted out, why we have zero respect for these arrogant, unelected bureaucrats with nothing but contempt and aloofness for democracy.

I say, you throw us your scraps from the dining room table, in the meantime we will be looking elsewhere for a hot meal. Contempt is what I have for the EU, and many many people in this country and elsewhere in the EU feel exactly the same. I say to Juncker and co this, ignore the will of the people at your peril.

Louisa.

[malumbu]

If we'd had a 52/58 the other way around we would have got a clear message that too many people were isolated from Westminster, too many people had real concerns about immigration (and perhaps some other issues), and that we very much needed to do a lot of rebuilding of society and trust in our leaders.

We got the same message with the result, yet we no longer have the influence to force fundamental change in the EU, we have the mess that is now the Tory party, the liklihood of some nutter of a PM, and all the damage that Brexit will lead to.

Did all of those who voted out want all of this. I doubt it.

PS Louisa - none of this is critical of the motives of many of the people who voted no. Perhaps it is time for you to back off whilst we lick our wounds, consider damage limitation and try to move forward.