How can we allow this to happen in today's time

[isham bracey]

Santerme wrote: "The army is not reform school and it's strength lies in it being of a volunteer nature"

Conscription in a time of War can make a difference between victory and defeat. National Service in peace time can add value to society and offer a rout out of ignorance and poverty. Hanging around the streets beating up innocent civilians doesn't contribute to either.

Colonel chips wrote: "First of all, it is awful that someone has been mugged. But we live in a very safe area, at a time when, nationally, just about every crime is at a historical low. The most pervasive way in which crime affects society is through the way in which these stories are reported and the discussions afterward which perpetuate the idea that there is a mugger on every street corner and that 'the rap music' is turning youths feral. And to suggest that music will turn someone into a mugger is an easy way to ignore the hundreds of other more powerful influences on a child, particularly parenting.

It is awful that someone has been mugged, but you could find exactly the same stories in newspapers forty years ago and you would just need to change 'hoody' for 'mod'".

Poppycock! This is not a very safe area and anyone who's lived outside London (or even in many other parts of London) will confirm this for you. DJKQ is right. There is a new phenomenon of agrevious violence for the sake of it and it's seen as fashionable. I'm afraid that we need to get realistic and confront this with harder law enforcement AND enforced service to society, old fashioned but I don't mind that really.

[Horsebox]

You said 'Poppycock!'. 10/10.

[womanofdulwich]

If you have ever challenged these kids- and you are bigger than them they are pathetic and run away and say you are threatening them and abusing them and they will call the police etc etc

[ImpetuousVrouw]

This is nonsense.

There has always been random violence.

While what happened to this guy is awful, it's not a new thing.

I grew up in Merseyside where random acts of violence were a normal part of life.

If anything, there is less random violence than there used to be when I was growing up, even in Merseyside.

[chantelle]

Meadow - what happened outside Peckham Rye station? a bag snatching?

[jimmyraj]

I agree with ImpetuousVrouw. Unfortunately this sort of thing happens occasionally and always has done. Kids hanging around in groups often target people to try and look cool in front of their mates.

In Newcastle where I grew up, it was a sort of badge of honour for kids to 'chin a Mister'.

[mastershake]

the area it was in is pretty rough too.

not that the bloke deserved it, but it's not the greatest place to walk through on your own on a saturday at quarter to midnight in summer.

[Louisa]

Another awful story, they become more and more the norm each day I read about them. And all the usual give them sympathy bandits coming out the closet and pouring love and affection on them, no wonder areas like Peckham have been able to become breeding grounds for gang culture and violence! They usually fit a certain description, hoodies, maybe the odd Staffordshire bull terrier type dog on the lead. As much as I would probably end up coming off worse, I am afraid I would have to chuck the abuse straight back into their face and try to physically defend myself. This type of trash who come from the gutter and live on state handouts should be shot, nice and simple. This isnt about revenge, it's about making an example of them. I'd also stop their f**king benefits with immediate effect too.

Louisa.

[Moos]

I don't think they'd be eligible for their benefits after you'd shot them anyway.

[ImpetuousVrouw]

Lol. Moos, that was very funny. I now have people on the bus looking around them to work out where the loud snorty gufaw just came from!

[Santerme]

isham bracey Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Santerme wrote: "The army is not reform school and

> it's strength lies in it being of a volunteer

> nature"

>

> Conscription in a time of War can make a

> difference between victory and defeat. National

> Service in peace time can add value to society and

> offer a rout out of ignorance and poverty. Hanging

> around the streets beating up innocent civilians

> doesn't contribute to either.

>

> Colonel chips wrote: "First of all, it is awful

> that someone has been mugged. But we live in a

> very safe area, at a time when, nationally, just

> about every crime is at a historical low. The most

> pervasive way in which crime affects society is

> through the way in which these stories are

> reported and the discussions afterward which

> perpetuate the idea that there is a mugger on

> every street corner and that 'the rap music' is

> turning youths feral. And to suggest that music

> will turn someone into a mugger is an easy way to

> ignore the hundreds of other more powerful

> influences on a child, particularly parenting.

>

> It is awful that someone has been mugged, but you

> could find exactly the same stories in newspapers

> forty years ago and you would just need to change

> 'hoody' for 'mod'".

>

>

> Poppycock! This is not a very safe area and anyone

> who's lived outside London (or even in many other

> parts of London) will confirm this for you. DJKQ

> is right. There is a new phenomenon of agrevious

> violence for the sake of it and it's seen as

> fashionable. I'm afraid that we need to get

> realistic and confront this with harder law

> enforcement AND enforced service to society, old

> fashioned but I don't mind that really.

Conscription happened in 1916 when we started to run out of men.

It is a bit of an obvious statement that in time of War, and that is Total War mobilisation of civilians into the armed forces is required.

But we are not in that situaton.

It is worth repeating that the armed forces are a professional force of volunteers that is the strength of the edifice.

And having graduated Sandhurst in 1983 and served almost 23 years it is a subject I am qualified to discuss....and am fairly unappreciative of the scrote thug comment as well.

Having grown up in Sixties Dulwich, the tribal necessity to fight came down to which estate you were from....

It was not serious violence but it was there.

Then having been sent to boarding school, where bullying, both physical and psychological was an art form...I was parachuted into the Beirut of secondary education, Tulse Hill in the mid Seventies....that was just mayhem....gang against gang and anyone met outside the school gates with a different uniform were considered fair game.

Then we have the tribal football culture in the same period...

If anything I would say the actual level of violence is less now, just more publicised.

[isham bracey]

Santerme - I do understand that there is nothing new under the sun, I accept that violence and bullying have been a consistent feature of many of our lives and those of our parents and ancestors where ever we have lived. My conjecture is that today we see a more brutal and casual display which may well be exacerbated by the media but is still very real. The use of knives and the attendant gangster culture is not what I witnessed going through a similar secondary modern "education" in South East London at around the same time as you.

With regard to conscription being used only in times of Total war, my questions would be: Did we not re-introduce National Service in 1947 through to 1960? Did not the Edifice of the Armed Forces benefit from this period of additional man power? Is it inconceivable that we all might be better off (including those who have nothing better than a Gang to nourish their lives) with this option? You are clearly better qualified to judge the benefits to the millitary than I but many people I have spoken with maintain that this experience served them well and benefited our country.

ps: I didn't make the scrote comment and wish no offence to either you or the Army.

[ImpetuousVrouw]

The brutality which many of us witnessed in the 70's, 80's and 90's was just as bad or worse than the young people dish out now. We are what has changed. We have become older, more comfortable and more easily shocked.

[????]

I don't think that the knife culture was as strong and so there were not as many deaths (may be my prejudice) but casual or organised youth violence I'd agree. I'm also not convinced it was quite as random in terms of victims.

[Keef]

What quids said.

I remember plenty of violence between kids of this sort of age, but a stabbing was a BIG thing, and you'd all hear about it, but now it's just an every day thing. The willingness to confront adults is also much more common, back in my day (only the early 90s), it was teens mugging teens.

[DJKillaQueen]

ImpetuousVrouw Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The brutality which many of us witnessed in the

> 70's, 80's and 90's was just as bad or worse than

> the young people dish out now. We are what has

> changed. We have become older, more comfortable

> and more easily shocked.

That's not really true though. I was an 80's teenager and you rarely heard of teachers being attacked by pupils or parents and there were not anything like the number of child murderers there are today. 13 children stabbed to death in London alone already this year. It was a comparatively rare thing up to the mid 90s.

Gang culture in itself is nothing new but has primarily been an adult thing. There have always been school bullies but the import of gang culture into our schools to the extent it now is, is a recent development and it is far more brutal and criminal than the isolated bullying that went before it (go back 100 years and you find the opposite is true of course).

It is an imported culture, that has been made easier by the internet and the globalisation of the media. It is no coincidence that as the internet and technology have grown so has the range of images the average child is exposed to. They are also far more informed than they've ever been and not always in a positive way. In many cases technology had become the babysitter of the home....replacing parenting. Far too many parents have no idea what their children are up to and worse still don't care.

[ImpetuousVrouw]

DJ I think you have a point. The random violence of my youth was just as brutal and meaningless, but the weapon of choice was usually a bottle or house brick despite most young men carrying knives.

[SeanMacGabhann]

All through the 70s, 80s, Limerick in Ireland was known as Stab City.

2 of my friends went to Uni there. Both of them got stabbed as well

So on the one hand I agree with people who say this is nothing new. On the other totally accept that many people can see this as something new

To anyone who remembers relative calm, say 30-60 years ago, you only have to go back a few decades earlier to see an almost unbleievably more brutal London

So I don?t believe the world is going to pot, but nor do I think the problems should be ignored. To tackle the problem needs clarity of thought and not knee-jerk, populist legislation

It can?t JUST be imported gang-culture, music-videos, computer games as some suggest ? how does that explain the example of Limerick (to pick just one) in the 70s. We had 1 fekking TV station back then and it wasn?t MTV. Not even the ZX81 had been invented yet, much less the latest xbox/playstation gore-fests

If Louisa wants to stop their benefits, that?s an opinion, but surely it?s no leap of faith to suggest that if someone on benefits has less money, they are more likely to take violent action against those who ?have?. Not condoning that behaviour ? but it seems self-defeating as a policy

I don?t have any easy answers but I?m uneasy with simplistic solutions to an age old problem

[westof]

I'm curious now to know how Limerick moved from being Stab City to (presumably) no longer Stab City?

Was it just an increase in opportunities for young people, or something else? Do these things just go in phases?

[Louisa]

The poor planning decisions of the 60's and 70s alongside a free for all welfare system post 1945 is what has lead to a gradual dumbing down of society, with the proud working classes, hard workers at that, being led into a life of the state owes you everything, as a result of successive governments not knowing how to deal with society. I would personal;ly not describe these people as working class, more a social underclass of the tv show 'shameless' ilk.

I agree with some of what you say Sean, but equally, the softly softly approach has failed to work in the past, and as much as being hard on these people will not prevent the crime from happening again, at least if we just disposed of them we would allow that to act as a deterant against doing this sort of thing again. I am afraid I have run out of sympathy for these scum, I came from a working class background, we had it bloody tough when I was growing up, but everyone in my family worked, and if they were out of work they wouldnt rest until they were back in work because it was the only way to put bread on the table, simple as. It's not just about taking the benefits away from these people, it is about taking away the benefits culture which has grown up over the last 40 odd years in this country!

Louisa.

[SeanMacGabhann]

As I left Ireland in the 80?s I don?t know it?s current state and I felt it unfair to assume it was the same.

The forum answers below give the usual mish-mash of conflicting opinions

http://www.maybenow.com/Is-Limerick-Ireland-really-dangerous-(-quotstab-city-quot-gang-fights-ect.)-q8237561

But I only used Limerick as an example of a place where the past isn?t as lovely as can be made out, and also a place where the current scapegoats don?t apply.

I suspect there are towns across England where there are similar stories. Which doesn?t mean it?s universal ? but it does put current london levels into some perspective

[SeanMacGabhann]

Louisa ? whilst you make fair enough points about dependancy culture, I can?t really engage with anyone who talks of ?disposing? of people, as it rather blurs the moral line between you and ?them?

[Louisa]

Sorry if it offends, but I am just sick of beating about the bush, whats the point? It has failed to solve this issue in the past, and why should it be any different now? When I talk of disposal, I am suggesting that anyone who acts in this way (remove the benefits argument for a moment) should be removed from society and taught that it is not the correct way to behave. They do not deserve to be able to engage with the rest of us if they choose to act in such a blatantly selfish and irresponsible way.

Louisa.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I?m not offended ? just disinterested in extremist measures

I?ve said it before but it bears repeating ? you aren?t suggesting anything new by excluding people. But you aren?t making anything better and you are likely making things worse

You can look at history, or you can look at other countries in 2010 to see a wide range of policy ? from inclusivity to hard-line extremism. I don?t see any countries with the kind of policy you espouse that I would want to live in

And if nowehere is doing what you suggest in the way that you would like, do you not think there are good reasons?

[Louisa]

Yes I do Sean, I think that politicians in western culture are too scared to use any sort of political argument which loses them votes or is perceived to provoke outrage from certain portions of the media, particularly in the UK. Crime in some countries is virtually unheard of, this type of happy slapping gang culture isnt seen in many European countries because, as with alcohol, a culture of violence or substance abuse has not been allowed to grow up and destroy communities, it is just a completely alien concept. The problem we have here is, the mistakes of the past are not easily rectified, certainly not overnight anyhow, so unless we take a hardline approach, we will just have to act in a slightly more soft manner for a few generations until we can change our cultural take on society. Which is better?

Louisa.