Is the 484 the worst bus service in London ?

[Lee Scoresby]

This may have been an EDF topic since year dot, I don't know. Whether or not, it is an increasingly pressing issue for those of us not bombing round in cars. Basic mobility.

For aeons the 484 service was lousy. Several years ago it had its socks hoiked up to become sort-of acceptable. Now it's complete and utter shit.

There are just not enough buses running. It's supposed to be a 10 minute service. These clowns don't manage more than 2 or 3 buses an hour these days. I waited 45 minutes for a 484 last week, and 25 minutes again today (Tues).

When the bus does come it's a cattle truck - dangerously and illegally packed. Are drivers just kind-hearted, or have they been instructed by their bosses to "pack 'em in" ?

The other thing resulting from this gross overcrowding is people being left at stops.

Nor can these transport halfwits stream their service at anything approaching equal times between buses - it's totally random, completely unpredictable. The most pronounced example is the convoy of multiple vehicles, with the resultant famine of provision for long periods before and after. What's the largest convoy a reader has seen (any service) ? My record is eight 343s.

Any vaguely intelligent and accountable transport system would increase provision during the 3 identifiable daily weekday peak periods: morning, after school, and after work. Have these morons even noticed ? As single-deck buses this is one time when a convoy of two 484s makes sense. Sometimes, indeed, there is a second bus, often there isn't. How can the Londoner at the stop tell ? Answer: he or she cannot, no way. No signage of such a pairing on any bus, and most drivers have taken a vow of utter silence.

Other SE London services noticeably deteriorating are the 37, which used to provide an excellent service over to Brixton and points west, and the once totally reliable 343.

Practices now affecting travellers on all these services include:

- Without notice, terminating the service before the end of the line, simply decanting passengers at the nearest stop rather than taking them where the service is meant to take them. How very convenient for bus companies, what a gross imposition on bus users.

- School teachers standing in the doorway at home time, letting kids idle up the street to the bus while on-board passengers sit and wait. And wait. By what legal AUTHORITY exactly ??

- Buses remaining at stops for minutes on end while the company "regulates the service". Another triumphant technique of 21st century scheduling !

- Provision of the Countdown electronic noticeboard at stops is, again, utterly without logic, totally random. Why is there not a board at the major Rye Lane stop at the bottom of Peckham Rye, for god's sake ? Did all the wee TfL Einsteins, like, get really distracted by a shiny-shiny ball bouncing by and just, like, forget this project ?

So . . Who is looking after our interests ? Who is defending Londoners ? Where are all those bright young poppets, Labour and Lib Dem, ceaselessly beetling about with their leaflets, their endless prate about strengthening 'the community' ?? Where (indeed who? - can any reader name one) are our SE London representatives on the London Assembly ? Where are the supposedly deeply local journos and editors, so obsessed with crime and trivia, so contemptuous of the real problems of their readers ?

I'm sure there's a chap drawing a salary as a regulator of London bus services. I'm sure he has a lovely office, pot plant and everything, a big salary and a fabulous pension plan. I would love to see this individual get off his fat arse, stop accepting the lies of the bus company and TfL, and start actually regulating the contracts these companies have, to provide decent services to Londoners.

I don't know if it still happens but I used to see something very strange, almost eerie, in the quiet hours after, say 9pm. Dozens of these buses going by, empty. I am quite aware that vehicles end up at the wrong end of the line, away from the depot, and so on, but this was evidently more than that. Was it some fatuous game to get service frequency numbers up to the required daily level ? Does anyone know ?

I would like to hear the experience of other bus users. I would like to hear (ANYTHING !) from the gutless butterflies who claim to represent us. I would love to hear from bus drivers.

I have the idea that while the media gawps at Boffo Boris and his toffy antics, the ol'Tory gang at City Hall is steadily slashing bus provision with the connivance of the companies - anyone know anything and willing to tell us ?

I have said in another EDF 'room', another stream, that the English do not get angry enough, often enough, about the crap and nonsense they are offered. This is something to get angry about. Every minute you and I spend at some damp, frozen, poorly lit bus stop is a minute we have lost with our kids, at our dinner tables, at work, resting, at leisure . . . endless chips out of our lives, y'know ?

Lee Scoresby, as ever was

[Peckhampam]

Interesting.

I would point out however that you can't have it both ways. You are angry about bunching....."Nor can these transport halfwits stream their service at anything approaching equal times between buses - it's totally random, completely unpredictable. The most pronounced example is the convoy of multiple vehicles, with the resultant famine of provision for long periods before and after" but don't want "Buses remaining at stops for minutes on end while the company "regulates the service". Another triumphant technique of 21st century scheduling !" Damned if they do and damned if they don't?

[KalamityKel]

Deary me it's not really THAT much of a bad service. It's just public transport for you. I think you need to look a little more outside the box

Lee Scoresby Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This may have been an EDF topic since year dot, I

> don't know. Whether or not, it is an increasingly

> pressing issue for those of us not bombing round

> in cars. Basic mobility.

>

> For aeons the 484 service was lousy. Several years

> ago it had its socks hoiked up to become sort-of

> acceptable. Now it's complete and utter shit.

Really? hmmmm

>

> There are just not enough buses running. It's

> supposed to be a 10 minute service. These clowns

> don't manage more than 2 or 3 buses an hour these

> days. I waited 45 minutes for a 484 last week, and

> 25 minutes again today (Tues).

You'll soon be complaining when bus fares sore to cover extra services besides I think you'll find services are quite regular or least if you are waiting for a bus in Camberwell which is not a 484 you see many start off their journey from the garage while still waiting for your bus

> When the bus does come it's a cattle truck -

> dangerously and illegally packed. Are drivers just

> kind-hearted, or have they been instructed by

> their bosses to "pack 'em in" ?

have you tried asking people to GET OFF the bus? No? Didn't think so. It would be a nasty result I can assure you. Perhaps directing that particular thought towards passengers may be more productive and appropriate.

>

> The other thing resulting from this gross

> overcrowding is people being left at stops.

That just can't be helped. I'm sure there are a good number of potential "passengers" that are only going to travel a few stops. Maybe you should create a system that deals with people who are quite capable walking a few stops but are just too lazy

>

> Nor can these transport halfwits stream their

> service at anything approaching equal times

> between buses - it's totally random, completely

> unpredictable. The most pronounced example is the

> convoy of multiple vehicles, with the resultant

> famine of provision for long periods before and

> after. What's the largest convoy a reader has seen

> (any service) ? My record is eight 343s.

Nice

>

> Any vaguely intelligent and accountable transport

> system would increase provision during the 3

> identifiable daily weekday peak periods: morning,

> after school, and after work. Have these morons

> even noticed ? As single-deck buses this is one

> time when a convoy of two 484s makes sense.

> Sometimes, indeed, there is a second bus, often

> there isn't. How can the Londoner at the stop tell

> ? Answer: he or she cannot, no way. No signage of

> such a pairing on any bus, and most drivers have

> taken a vow of utter silence.

Not point even answering that

> Other SE London services noticeably deteriorating

> are the 37, which used to provide an excellent

> service over to Brixton and points west, and the

> once totally reliable 343.

I think you'll find the 37 has improved quite considerably over the years not gotten worse

>

> Practices now affecting travellers on all these

> services include:

>

> - Without notice, terminating the service before

> the end of the line, simply decanting passengers

> at the nearest stop rather than taking them where

> the service is meant to take them. How very

> convenient for bus companies, what a gross

> imposition on bus users.

there are many factors for such an action, it could be heavy traffic along its route has made it run incredibly late meaning the only way to get the service back on track is to terminate early and then re-join its return journey earlier to make up time. Drivers legal driving time may be compromised and so early termination is unavoidable. Traffic issues (diversions, road closures etc) also have an impact. The bus company really isn't out to do what it likes just to upset you.

> - School teachers standing in the doorway at home

> time, letting kids idle up the street to the bus

> while on-board passengers sit and wait. And wait.

> By what legal AUTHORITY exactly ??

What place does this argument have in this post? Surely that's a school issue not the bus services. School try to help ease the stress of school children travelling on buses - they can be a right unruly lot at times. Perhaps you would prefer that type of experience?

>

> - Buses remaining at stops for minutes on end

> while the company "regulates the service". Another

> triumphant technique of 21st century scheduling !

You'd be complaining if you had missed the 9:43 bus because it was early now wouldnt you?!

>

> - Provision of the Countdown electronic

> noticeboard at stops is, again, utterly without

> logic, totally random. Why is there not a board at

> the major Rye Lane stop at the bottom of Peckham

> Rye, for god's sake ? Did all the wee TfL

> Einsteins, like, get really distracted by a

> shiny-shiny ball bouncing by and just, like,

> forget this project ?

Perhaps you should offer your experience of such systems? I think the main issue here is money - becareful what you wish for... it could be expensive

>

> So . . Who is looking after our interests ? Who is

> defending Londoners ? Where are all those bright

> young poppets, Labour and Lib Dem, ceaselessly

> beetling about with their leaflets, their endless

> prate about strengthening 'the community' ?? Where

> (indeed who? - can any reader name one) are our SE

> London representatives on the London Assembly ?

> Where are the supposedly deeply local journos and

> editors, so obsessed with crime and trivia, so

> contemptuous of the real problems of their readers

> ?

What's you point?

>

>

I really cant be bothered with the rest. Nice to have a rant I guess.

[ratty]

I have had to get the 484 of late as my car has broken down. Cannot say I have found it that bad. Yeah it's a bit packed but we all have to get home!

[EDKiwi]

Lee Scoresby Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> - Provision of the Countdown electronic

> noticeboard at stops is, again, utterly without

> logic, totally random. Why is there not a board at

> the major Rye Lane stop at the bottom of Peckham

> Rye, for god's sake ? Did all the wee TfL

> Einsteins, like, get really distracted by a

> shiny-shiny ball bouncing by and just, like,

> forget this project ?

>

They were meant to be rolling out Countdown II across London (once the on board iBUS equipment had been completed), but apparently this has now been suspended due to budget cuts, so I'm guessing it will be a long time before you see any changes there. Makes you wonder if it is really worth spending millions on the new routemasters.

[SeanMacGabhann]

What's with, like, all of the, like, pauses?

I haven't often taken the 484 but like any single-decker non-bendy service (I used the 78 and 42 regularly) I find them less well-run than the main double-decker routes. The 37 route is regularly attacked and the scars from a few years back obviously haven't healed but I use it a lot these days and it's mostly fine. If a long wait happens it's usually because of a traffic incident or roadworks in Herne Hill rather than any bus schedule problems

[mastershake]

the 37 is much better than it used to be. Brixton has hideous roadworks that seemingly will never end which is why the service is so patchy going Brixton to Peckham. The other way it's fine.

and though countdowns are worth having, they'll never be 100% accurate

[berryberry]

The bus services in this part of london are exceptionally awful. I sometimes wonder if its due to a lack of tourists and density of commuters but people if they can afford it just use their car instead with just adds to the traffic congestion and slowness. It doesn't work if the answer is "that's public". Low income people depend on the bus and the general lack of tube and distance from trains stations means there is more reason for it to be good. You have to complain to bus companies or your local mp.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I couldn?t disagree with this statement more.

I could try, but I would fail

No, it?s not perfect. But getting around South London is a breeze these days (compared to even 10 years ago). If I had unlimited money available I?m not sure I could improve it enough to make you change your mind

I travel into the City every day. The West end several times a month. I travel around South London most days as well. Given the amount of traffic on the road it?s pretty darn good

[Sue]

berryberry Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The bus services in this part of london are

> exceptionally awful.

xxxxxxxx

I use the buses in this area all the time.

I haven't found the services to be "exceptionally awful".

What are you comparing them with?

[mastershake]

yeah, compared with 10 years ago the bus services aren't bad at all.

i lived in herne hill 10 years ago, you'd frequently have to wait at least an hour for a 37...

[skidmarks]

Funny you should bring this up today

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11309181

[The Minkey]

While still living 2 mins from the Tube in Brixton, I pondered long and hard before moving to an area where I would be forced to rely on buses because of the potential for erratic services.

For the past 3 years, my local buses have been the 484 and the 343 and on the whole I've been pleasantly surprised, not least by the fact that 90% of the time drivers will wait for you to complete the sprint to the bus stop - a complete revelation after years of buses in Brixton whose drivers appeared to take a perverse pleasure in shutting the doors in your face.

Occasionally, there are unusually long waits but these are in the minority. Granted, I've suffered longer mystery waits for the 484 but these are the exception to the rule, in my experience. And yes, it does get crazy packed at times but I've always thought this to be the result of traffic congestion further back on the route because there's usually one not far behind who's made good timing because they've had no passengers to pick up, so it's worth letting the packed one go by if time is not the issue. I know this because while I'm prepared to resign myself to being a sardine, my OH isn't so if we're travelling together, we end up waiting for the empty one.

[Nero]

Scoresby,

You must have spent a good ten minutes writing that very informative and impassioned post. Why not spend another ten tracking down the right person to write to and do so? It might just get something done.

[jctg]

"Is the 484 the worst bus service in London?"

Probably not.

[Strawbs]

Scoresby

I agreed with you re the irregularity of the buses arriving, it was just the other week I waited 25 minutes before giving up and walking (it was one of those ridiculous situations I got myself into where I had waited so long then every time I thought of leaving I thought the bus would arrive as I'd been waiting so long!).. I seem to notice there will be two within 30 seconds of each other and then quite a long time til the next one comes.. I do too find them packed, I wish that they would make it a double decker bus and I think that would make the journey a lot more pleasant.. Yesterday when I was on it we had a battle of the buggies and to be honest there just isnt enough room for more than one buggie on there esp as you can only get off at the front..

cant comment on the rest of your post but that's my two pennies worth..

[DJKillaQueen]

Generally speaking I don't find the bus services too bad (and remember the days when the 37 seemed more like a rumour than an actual service).....but I too have on occasion found the 484 wanting. Usually because a bus hasn't come along for a while and so the next one that does, is packed and doesn't stop.

[berryberry]

I rely on the P4 and P13 and they are awful bus services. Three an hour and sometimes they don't come at all or are full up. I don't drive and I don't want to add to the congestion problem in london but I work in the city and go to the west end and the bus service are much better and they have tubes etc to cope with. I'm not comparing the problem to ten years ago, that is a lost and pointless place to draw comparisons, I'm just comparing to other parts of london. I had to get a bus home from camberwell the other week which is not far, even late at night with no traffic it took me over an hour to get home because I waited 45 mins for the P13. That is a bad service.

[PeckhamRose]

Why whinge on here?

Or - if you do, email the link to the bus companies, the councillors, the Mayor, TfL, etc etc.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Berryberry

Can I ask where you live as I can?t see any need to wait for either P service if you live in ED ? Surely any bus up Lordship Lane, Barry Road or Peckham Rye will get you to a short walk from your door?

[berryberry]

no you can ask but I'm hardly going to divulge my private information. P13 frequents east dulwich and I need to use it and its a poor service.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Geez Louise I wasn't asking for your address! - Just the general area

I have lived at the top end of Friern Road and along East Dulwich Grove - which are pretty far apart and I've never had a problem - If I had the possibility of standing at Camberwell Green for 45 minutes I would either:

a) walk to ED

b) get the first bus towards Ed and get off at nearest P bus stop there

But you are beginning to sound like you are making a stubborn point and not trying to solve any particular issue

[berryberry]

I think you are being pointlessly noisy and condescending. I'm sure I know the correct and proper bus routes and how to go about my journey. I added to the discussion as I have an experience of the buses being rubbish. I didn't need someone to go "well you should do it this way". No, they bus company should run a more efficient service. Possibly just simply as efficient as it is supposed to be would be a good start. Thanks though SeanMacGabhann for your perspective.

[TonyQuinn]

Lee, I respect your initial post....but do urge a bit of brevity in future. Last autumn and winter, First Crapital Connect nearly lost its franchise after many passengers who used their awful service mobilized against their crap service. We harrassed the company, ministers, Tessa, Harriet, whoever it may be, we signed a petition on the Number 10 website, as well as posting on the fourm....if you're doing all that, then you may see improvements. Personally, I don't anything about the 484 but will back any petition etc you may decide to introduce. It's horrid when public transport sucks!

[SeanMacGabhann]

Well a bus company is that ? a bus company ? not a door to door taxi service. Perhaps you live on a road which has relatively low demand and the bus company is allocating it?s resources efficiently.

And I wasn?t intending to condescend to you ? it is genuinely surprisng the number of people who only know their ?route? and don?t investigate options.