Transport in south london

[Cardelia]

DulwichLondoner Wrote:

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> Let me rephrase: the fact remains that these

> incidents seem way more frequent on our lines than

> on other lines run by the same Southern Fail. Is

> this impression wholly wrong and unfounded, or is

> there a logical explanation as to why that is? Are

> the tracks and the equipment on our lines older?

> Are our lines used by less healthy and less

> well-behaved people, who are therefore constantly

> falling ill on the trains, trespassing on the

> tracks etc, way more than passengers on other

> lines?

Don't forget that the tracks and signals are the responsibility of Network Rail, not Southern. If points are breaking then that's Network Rail's fault. We're also in a particularly vulnerable position because only one line runs through ED and there are many pinch points in South London which affect our services (Tulse Hill, Selhurst, East Croydon, Beckenham). If any of those fail then our line gets taken out of service and all our trains are screwed. So yes, we are disproportionately affected by infrastructure failures and delays.

> Yesterday there was a fire at Waterloo which

> caused a lot of disruptions. However, as far as I

> remember, and based on what friends and relatives

> commuting into Waterloo tell me, this kind of

> incident is, luckily, very rare, so yesterday's

> delays are not particularly representative.

> Today's delays on our lines are, instead, way more

> frequent and more representative. Just a case of

> bad luck?

Waterloo has 8 lines running in to it. If one goes down, or one set of points fails, then there's enough slack in the system to manage services without too much disruption. From ED, we have two lines (one up, one down) to London Bridge. That gives us much less flexibility, and makes our services much more prone to delays.

[DulwichLondoner]

Abe_froeman Wrote:

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> Is this impression wholly wrong and unfounded... ?

> YES

It would be interesting to have access to performance statistics (delays, cancellations, etc.), by station and by time of day (peak vs off-peak). However, AFAIK this data either does not exist, or, if it does, is not public.

There are aggregate statistics on Southern?s performance on the Brighton line vs the ?Metro? line, but this level of aggregation is useless: East Dulwich and Balham are both on the ?metro? lines but my impression is that Balham?s services have never been as bad as ours. Clapham Junction is on the metro line and on pretty much all suburban lines into Victoria (except the Gatwick Express which doesn?t stop there), so there?s no way to tell how services from Clapham Junction into Victoria have been affected.

Also, averaging peak and off-peak services is a very easy way to conceal abysmal performance. There are always more off-peak trains than peak ones. From East Dulwich to London Bridge there will be, what? 80 trains a day and maybe 20 during peak hour? I don?t know the actual figures but I hope you get the idea. If half the peak services are late, Southern could still claim that 87.5% (=10/80) were on time, whereas in fact half the trains that mattered to most travellers were not. If they then mix the ED statistics with those of other, better lines (e.g. Balham) then they could easily claim even higher punctuality figures.

I remembered the story of this commuter, who kept track of delays on his journeys, and noted a stark contrast between the 82.5% punctuality reported in the Public Performance Measure, and the 37% he experienced in his commute.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/may/13/rail-companies-trains-on-time-delays-cancellations-punctuality

Maybe he and I happen to be the unluckiest Southern Rail commuters ever; or maybe, just maybe, these official figures don?t mean much.

[DulwichLondoner]

Cardelia Wrote:

> We're also in a particularly vulnerable

> position because only one line runs through ED and

> there are many pinch points in South London which

> affect our services (Tulse Hill, Selhurst, East

> Croydon, Beckenham). If any of those fail then our

> line gets taken out of service and all our trains

> are screwed. So yes, we are disproportionately

> affected by infrastructure failures and delays.

Thank you, that?s a very interesting comment.

In the absence of detailed performance statistics by station and time of day, as per my previous post, is there any way to get an idea of which stations/lines are disproportionately affected when something goes wrong, for the reasons you mentioned? Other than saying that stations which have multiple lines running through them are less vulnerable because there is an element of ?redundancy? (if one fails, the others can still work)?

For example, multiple lines run through Balham, and it has 4 platforms, of which 2 used by trains stopping there and 2 used only (AFAIK) by trains which pass by without stopping. Maybe all of this adds some flexibility when things go wrong? E.g. if there?s a problem on a platform trains can use another one? If the line from Crystal Palace goes KO, there?s still the line from East Croydon, both of which go into Victoria, and viceversa?

Or, similarly, and ignoring the Southern vs Southeastern differences, I?d imagine the Earlsfield to Waterloo services are less vulnerable than ours because multiple lines converge at Earlsfield and continue to Waterloo?

PS The publicly-owned TFL does public detailed statistics by line and by peak vs off-peak: https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/underground-services-performance#on-this-page-0

The privately-owned rail companies do not, AFAIK.

[Cardelia]

I don't know whether that level of detail in performance statistics is released into the public domain. ED station may have its own performance metrics rather than the ones for Southern as a whole: I've not seen them displayed anywhere, but that's probably a good place to start looking.

The warren of lines through South London can be a good thing for some services because if one part of the network goes down then there are always alternative routes for trains. Generally though this tends to benefit long-distance trains over the urban commuter services - for example, there must be at least 4 ways for Thameslink trains to get from Brighton to the core. And Balham is a good example for the reasons you mentioned.

[natty01295]

Get a Gas,Petrol Motorised

Or Electric Bicycle

- Great Fun !!!

I enjoyed it.

[natty01295]

-

[ianr]

There's a new 'on time' metric been brought in from July 2017, which looks at accuracy of arrival time to the nearest minute at all stations, rather than the 'right time' one which looks just at endpoints. Its coverage is currently 80% of stations but rising, and it seems to be scheduled for introduction (ie 100%?) in 2019. There are announcements and an example of some preliminary figures using it at https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/media-centre/press-releases/2017/469773044-2017-07-18.html and https://www.networkrail.co.uk/who-we-are/how-we-work/performance/public-performance-measure/punctuality-national-rail-network/. I've not seen it stated explicitly, but the reporting year seems to me to run from 1 April, and is then further split into 13 periods. "Control Period" is another entity entirely; CP6 reportedly covers 2019-24.

If Network Rail have access to the source data (they already summarise to TOC and sub-operator level: see eg https://www.networkrail.co.uk/who-we-are/how-we-work/performance/public-performance-measure/) then conceivably a breakdown by station, route, or time-of-day might be obtainable now or in the future, via an FoI request if necessary.

Thee are also oodles of statistics published by the ORR, http://orr.gov.uk/statistics. I was surprised to see that the East Dulwch estimated entrances-and-exits fell from 1.71M in 2015-16 to 1.33M in 2016-17. The figures for Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye for both years were 7.00M->7.18M and 7.52M->7.46M respectively.

[dc]

This is a pretty useful site: http://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk

[mary123]

Recent news that trains from Dalston is running 24 hours..i thought great but stopping at new cross gate..,if only they went down to forest hill to help serve Dulwich area.

[BrandNewGuy]

They'll be extending the all-night service next year ? including the Overground line from Highbury and Islington / Dalston Junction to Clapham Junction via Denmark Hill, which will be very useful.

[NewWave]

mary123 Wrote:

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> Recent news that trains from Dalston is running 24

> hours..i thought great but stopping at new cross

> gate..,if only they went down to forest hill to

> help serve Dulwich area.

Agree..especially as its a real pain to get buses back from there.

[fishbiscuits]

New Cross gate makes sense. It's a busy area, with nightlife and a university nearby. Also, as an initial expansion, it's going to be the shortest/simplest route to roll out.

Maybe not much use if you're in Dulwich or Forest Hill, but useful for people in Peckham, Nunhead, Deptford, Brockley...

[Earl Aelfheah]

BrandNewGuy Wrote:

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> They'll be extending the all-night service next

> year ? including the Overground line from Highbury

> and Islington / Dalston Junction to Clapham

> Junction via Denmark Hill, which will be very

> useful.

I wasn't aware of this. That's great news.

[PK36]

BrandNewGuy Wrote:

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> They'll be extending the all-night service next

> year ? including the Overground line from Highbury

> and Islington / Dalston Junction to Clapham

> Junction via Denmark Hill, which will be very

> useful.

Have you got a source for that info as the only thing I can find is that the 2018 extension is for the northern part to Highbury & Islington, not to Clapham Junction (i.e. it will still end at New Cross Gate):

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/london-overground/london-overground-night-service

[JW]

London Bridge officially reopened today to much fanfare. Does anybody know whether this means that Southern trains will all now run to London Bridge as opposed to two an hour terminating at South Bermondsey?

[Cheeseheads]

Has anyone used a motorised scooter? The Swifty ones look good.

[DulwichFox]

JW Wrote:

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> London Bridge officially reopened today to much

> fanfare. Does anybody know whether this means that

> Southern trains will all now run to London Bridge

> as opposed to two an hour terminating at South

> Bermondsey?

I'm off to Millwall (South Bermondsey) on Sat 6th Jan.

Trains seem to be running a normal service into London Bridge.

Fingers crossed.

[JW]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> JW Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > London Bridge officially reopened today to much

> > fanfare. Does anybody know whether this means

> that

> > Southern trains will all now run to London

> Bridge

> > as opposed to two an hour terminating at South

> > Bermondsey?

>

> I'm off to Millwall (South Bermondsey) on Sat 6th

> Jan.

> Trains seem to be running a normal service into

> London Bridge.

> Fingers crossed.

Thanks DulwichFox - my point was more around whether the service would revert to one train every ten minutes from ED to LB during rush hour? Rather than the existing service, where the 07.40 and 08.02 terminate at South Bermondsey. Any ideas?

Have fun at the game!

[fishbiscuits]

JW Wrote:

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> Thanks DulwichFox - my point was more around

> whether the service would revert to one train

> every ten minutes from ED to LB during rush hour?

> Rather than the existing service, where the 07.40

> and 08.02 terminate at South Bermondsey.

No, alternate trains in the morning rush hour are still terminating at South Bermondsey.

Shit service.

[Jim1234]

JW Wrote:

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> DulwichFox Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > JW Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > London Bridge officially reopened today to

> much

> > > fanfare. Does anybody know whether this means

> > that

> > > Southern trains will all now run to London

> > Bridge

> > > as opposed to two an hour terminating at

> South

> > > Bermondsey?

> >

> > I'm off to Millwall (South Bermondsey) on Sat

> 6th

> > Jan.

> > Trains seem to be running a normal service into

> > London Bridge.

> > Fingers crossed.

>

> Thanks DulwichFox - my point was more around

> whether the service would revert to one train

> every ten minutes from ED to LB during rush hour?

> Rather than the existing service, where the 07.40

> and 08.02 terminate at South Bermondsey. Any

> ideas?

>

> Have fun at the game!

I remember the trains were set to return to one every ten minutes when the new Thameslink timetable starts. Anyone know when that will be?

[JW]

Even though we?re not Thameslink?

[BrandNewGuy]

fishbiscuits Wrote:

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> JW Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Thanks DulwichFox - my point was more around

> > whether the service would revert to one train

> > every ten minutes from ED to LB during rush

> hour?

> > Rather than the existing service, where the

> 07.40

> > and 08.02 terminate at South Bermondsey.

>

> No, alternate trains in the morning rush hour are

> still terminating at South Bermondsey.

>

> Shit service.

I wonder when the 'rush hour' really starts for ED. I'd suggest it would be covered by the 08.10, 08.20, 08.30 and 08.51. So an 08.40 would probably be far more useful than the 07.40.

The new Thameslink timetable starts in May.

[JW]

Call me greedy but we used to have a 07.40, 08.00 and an 08.40. Congestion at LB was the reason given for terminating some of the services at South Bermondsey. But now that the work at LB has finished we should get these services back shouldn?t we? Although I?m still unsure how we?re impacted by the Thameslink timetable.

[Jim1234]

JW Wrote:

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> Call me greedy but we used to have a 07.40, 08.00

> and an 08.40. Congestion at LB was the reason

> given for terminating some of the services at

> South Bermondsey. But now that the work at LB has

> finished we should get these services back

> shouldn?t we? Although I?m still unsure how we?re

> impacted by the Thameslink timetable.

Good point! I vaguely remember that when the Thameslink programme finishes is the same as when the work at London Bridge finishes, hence why we'll revert to our original timetable then. I can't remember exactly where I heard that and can't find anything online though...

[alex_b]

An 8:40 is really only useful if your office is right by London Bridge, 7:40 allows you to get to other parts of London.