Pedants on the EDF

[louisiana]

Am I not a pedant, LM? :)

I do try to keep it under control these days, as I know it can be infuriating for others.

The thing that drives me totally potty is random punctuation. I think poor punctuation and incorrect syntax are signs of woolly or lazy thinking. But they can be forgiven on a forum.

I do a fair amount of translation, and badly written texts where nobody working professionally in my language pairs can state for certain what the writer was trying to say are the bane of my life.

[Narnia]

Quite!

[woofmarkthedog]

peckhamboy Wrote:

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> Surely you mean quiet?

--------------------------

Tee hee

Another one lured in

W**F

[Alec John Moore]

I read Lynne Truss's "Eats, Shoots & Leaves" recently and found it really funny - and informative. I also find the rogue apostrophe quite irritating at times, particularly when it's used in the plural form of an abbreviation such as "NGO's". I wonder if this makes me a deviant as well as a pedant.

[The Minkey]

Charles' or Charles's garden are both correct. The general rule of thumb with the possessive 's' seems to be consistency - if you decide to opt for the former, then stick to the same rule throughout. All the same, it's not hard and fast. Here's some pointers if you can be bothered to take a look: http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/possessives.htm

[RosieH]

I learnt at school that 's follows a singular noun and ' follows a plural. However, be guided by how you pronounce it, i.e. if you say it Prince Charleses garden, then there should be the second s, and if you don't, then there shouldn't.

But as Louisiana says, be guided by what they say themselves. Most people I know pronouce the hospital St Thomases, and it's a singular, but on the side of the building, it says St Thomas'. So, you know, it's fluid.

As for licence, practice etc, an easy way to remember the Cs and Ss is Crocodile Smiles - nouns are C and verbs are S. Nice.

[david_carnell]

http://www.thepoke.co.uk/wp-content/gallery/week-in-pics-23-10-10/commas.jpg

[RosieH]

Loving your work Carnell.

[computedshorty]

How can you expect to Eat with Grandpa if they have taken up the invitation to Let's Eat Grandpa?

[Santerme]

As an honours graduate in English from a good university, when a degree was worth something, I was able to spot at least two errors in your piece.

As a non pedant I, however, shall remain silent on them.

In fact, it was more syntax than grammar anyway.

dita-on-tees Wrote:

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> I find posters who correct other poster's grammar

> thoroughly obnoxious. Grammar is badly taught

> these days and not everybody has had access to an

> education which gives confidence in using the

> English language. I didn't learn how to use a

> comma until I was around 22, and I confess I still

> struggle at times. Pointing out the grammatical

> mistakes in a post always feels like a superior

> swipe and suggests that what the poster has to say

> is somewhat less important than a misplaced dot. I

> got 10 pages into that Lynne Truss book and

> thought, hmm life is way too short for this poo.

[dita-on-tees]

But you haven't remained silent, indeed you have hinted at volume. In addition, by linking the two statements with your flawless grammar you have also suggested:

a) I may not have got a degree from a good university

b) I may not have got my degree from a time when a degree was worth something.

Bah, anyway the only syntax I am interested in is the duty on my wine.

[Narnia]

I think you've just outed yourself as a top class pedant (in denial)!

Santerme Wrote:

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> As an honours graduate in English from a good

> university, when a degree was worth something, I

> was able to spot at least two errors in your

> piece.

>

> As a non pedant I, however, shall remain silent on

> them.

>

> In fact, it was more syntax than grammar anyway.

>

>

>

>

> dita-on-tees Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I find posters who correct other poster's

> grammar

> > thoroughly obnoxious. Grammar is badly taught

> > these days and not everybody has had access to

> an

> > education which gives confidence in using the

> > English language. I didn't learn how to use a

> > comma until I was around 22, and I confess I

> still

> > struggle at times. Pointing out the grammatical

> > mistakes in a post always feels like a superior

> > swipe and suggests that what the poster has to

> say

> > is somewhat less important than a misplaced dot.

> I

> > got 10 pages into that Lynne Truss book and

> > thought, hmm life is way too short for this poo.

[reggie]

Its the gratuitous self promoters that really annoy me.

way

too many

chancers

on this forum

[daizie]

AVOID confusion by simply understanding everything all of the time

[RosieH]

dita, you raise an interesting point about not having been taught it at school: I learnt apostrophes and Crocodile Smiles, but for all else I'm self taught.

Voracious reading and a sense of curiosity taught me what I needed to know - if people are interested, it's a piece of piss. If they don't care to find out, I wonder why they should care about getting it wrong.

[Brendan]

Whereas I was motivated more by an incessant urge to be a smartarse.

For instance I?m just busting to point out to Santerme that syntax is an element of grammar.

Anyhoo this by no means absolves me from the guilt of bed spilling. And shit grammar. Other folkses erors are no less wrong because of my own.

[Ladymuck]

Narnia Wrote:

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> I think you've just outed yourself as a top class

> pedant (in denial)!

I have just banged my head reading that highly comical post.

*rubs head*

Sooooooo funny! (The post - not the bang on the head)

[Ladymuck]

Brendan Wrote:

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> this by no means absolves me from the guilt

> of bed spilling...

:-S

[annaj]

I agree with Rosie that both s' and s's can be correct and would probably go for Charles's Garden, because I would say Charleses.

I believe, although can't remember who told me, that St Thomas' has the apostrophe after the s, because it's named after more than one St Thomas.

[mockney piers]

Does cheeses as plural wind anyone up or is it just me?

[louisiana]

I don't think having been awarded a degree (from any institution, of any class, from any era, in any subject) says anything about your use of English. Having taught on both undergraduate and postgraduate degree courses at different universities in various countries, I'm only too aware that marking schemes barely touch on ability to write. Most university lecturers are in any case not masters of their own language.

My major language learning experiences were teaching for the British Council across the range of language abilities, from near-beginners to post-docs working for international publishers; and teaching English editing modules on higher degree courses outside the UK. Incredibly proficient but foreign speakers of your language ask the most difficult questions imaginable about usage, and you have to be able to answer all of them. So there's a need to move from instinct, based on reading or other exposure, to having to defend a particular construction as correct, generally based on authority. I have never loved English usage books so much!

Translation can also hone a person's skills: you then understand that languages can work in very different ways, and that communication and ambiguity are key issues. Your target is always to construct a text that reads believably and without the slightest niggle, in the target language, regardless of the quality of the source text.

But online forums are informal spaces where anything goes. Pedants should reserve their analysis and comments for texts of greater significance.

[computedshorty]

Whilst studying at Heber University in the thirties, we had to believe that the various subjects were true as taught, as only the Tutor having access to a book we relied entirely on the spoken word or shown on the black board.

Only having a pen that was wooden with a steel nib that we dipped in the inkwell at the top of the desk, and lost most of the ink between the well and the one exercise book that all subjects were entered.

It is hardly surprising that very few of us did graduate with any honours at all.

I like to think that the early education here in my locality was the best that could be given in the time of ensuing war, as the Tutors were now replacements, as most of the Students along with the permanent Tutors were evacuated away from London.

Very few of us stayed on here throughout the war to obtain a very substandard education leaving age fourteen.

So if I am not always up to standard, as Norman would have said; ? Don?t laugh at me because I?m a fool?.

[Ladymuck]

louisiana Wrote:

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> Am I not a pedant, LM? :)

Well, you are definitely not one of those who inspired this thread (sorry to disappoint!). In fact, bizarrely, they have all stayed away.

However, having read your various posts (and learned from them too) on here - I guess you must be;-)! I shall certainly keep a special eye out on your posts in future...:))

Out of interest, which other languages do you speak?

[katie1997]

mockney piers Wrote:

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> Does cheeses as plural wind anyone up or is it

> just me?

I have thought caerphilly about this and I reckon it cheeses a lot of people off, so you're not alone.

[karter]

katie1997 Wrote:

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> mockney piers Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Does cheeses as plural wind anyone up or is it

> > just me?

>

> I have thought caerphilly about this and I reckon

> it cheeses a lot of people off, so you're not

> alone.

Emmental dear Watson, ask the chap in the Cheeses Block for the correct answer to this.