Honour the Covenant

[david_carnell]

Just so we know what we are talking about the following is (I think) an exhaustive list of conflicts involving British troops in the last 100 years:

# World War I (1914?1918)

# Easter Rising (1916)

# Russian Civil War (1918?1922)

# Third Anglo-Afghan War (1919)

# Irish War of Independence (1919?1921)

# World War II (1939?1945)

# Greek Civil War (1941?1949)

# Malayan Emergency (1948?1960)

# Korean War (1950?1953)

# Mau Mau Uprising (1952?1960)

# Cyprus Emergency (1955?1959)

# Suez Crisis (1956)

# Brunei Revolt (1962)

# Dhofar Rebellion (1962?1975)

# Indonesia-Malaysia confrontation (1962?1966)

# Northern Ireland Troubles (1969-2007)

# Cod War Confrontation (1975?1976)

# Falklands War (1982)

# The First Gulf War (1990?1991)

# The Bosnian War (1995?1996)

# The Kosovo War (1999)

# Iraqi no-fly zones (1991-2003)

# Sierra Leone Civil War (2000)

I'm going away to think before confirming but I can spot more than one that falls outside the "just" parameters mentioned earlier.

[mockney piers]

Ok fair enough. A very quick swizz down the list and it's still under fifty percent though.

[Brendan]

Who was the Cod War Confrontation fought against?

[Huguenot]

Iceland. Very scary guys.

Edited to say that it would have to be in the 'unjust' box.

[Marmora Man]

My judgement:

World War I (1914?1918) Overall a "just" war.

# Easter Rising (1916) More difficult to call - but it was an armed rising in what was then UK at a time when UK was at war. Personally I think the response was disproportionate but a response was required.

# Russian Civil War (1918?1922) Supporting a war ally - on balance just (50%)

# Third Anglo-Afghan War (1919) I know nothing of this.

# Irish War of Independence (1919?1921) An inevitable response of the authorities to an armed rising. Should have been resolved by peaceful political means - but hotheads on both sides prevented this.

# World War II (1939?1945) A just war. Tho' the deals with USSR over Poland and other Eastern Europe countries were disgraceful.

# Greek Civil War (1941?1949) A just war that, finally, led to UK and others confronting communist expansion in Europe.

# Malayan Emergency (1948?1960) A just war that, again, confronted a communist expansion.

# Korean War (1950?1953) A just war - again confronted communist expansion

# Mau Mau Uprising (1952?1960) A less that just war - given the political climate of the time the "rebels" would have done better to wait out for independence.

# Cyprus Emergency (1955?1959) A less than just war -

# Suez Crisis (1956) An unjust war

# Brunei Revolt (1962) A just war

# Dhofar Rebellion (1962?1975) A just war

# Indonesia-Malaysia confrontation (1962?1966)

# Northern Ireland Troubles (1969-2007) Not a war - but the military, and other responses, were appropriate.

# Cod War Confrontation (1975?1976) A foolish confrontation - not a war.

# Falklands War (1982) A just war

# The First Gulf War (1990?1991) A just war

# The Bosnian War (1995?1996) UK wasn't there as a war fighting force

# The Kosovo War (1999) UK wasn't there as a war fighting force

# Iraqi no-fly zones (1991-2003) Not a war - but a sensible action

# Sierra Leone Civil War (2000) A new concept - developed by T Blair - possibly justified by its outcome.

[Santerme]

World War I (1914?1918) The last war of competing Empires, not a just war for the participating troops.

Easter Rising (1916) Bit of a PR disaster for the British

Russian Civil War (1918?1922) War over what is termed odious debt, the Bolsheviks were not going to honour Imperial indebtedness.

Third Anglo-Afghan War (1919) led Afghanistan to become the first Muslim nation to gain independence.

Irish War of Independence (1919?1921) Should have been sorted out in the 19th Century with a Home Rule Bill. Black and Tans not our finest hour.

World War II (1939?1945) Just war without a doubt, that should never have happened, failure of collective security.

Greek Civil War (1941?1949) 48 Govts between 1920 and 1922, was the prelude. the Truman Doctrine made this one of first Cold War issues.

Malayan Emergency (1948?1960) Communist uprising with no popular support from the Malays, so justified intervention.

Korean War (1950?1953) Interesting theory that the Korean war was started under NSC-68 by the West as a strategy of tension, the primary framework of orientation, so citizens and governments would support the militarization of the West for control of the world?s resources.

Mau Mau Uprising (1952?1960) Result by 1960, there was one man one vote and the Kenyans had all the concessions requested in the first place. Interesting statistic is that by the end of the Emergency the total number of rebels hanged was over 1,000. In comparison, during the Zionist rebellion in Palestine the British had hanged a total of eight guerillas.

Cyprus Emergency (1955?1959) Bit of a colonial tiff!

Suez Crisis (1956) Not quite sure how we got talked into this one, but ill judged and, in my view the real point at which the so called 'Special Relationship' between the US and Britain died.

Brunei Revolt (1962) Shell objected to their refineries being attacked, so we intervened, luckily for the Sultan and descendents. Jeremy Moore who commanded the Marines on the Falklands was instrumental in the defeat of the insurgents in Limbang as a Captain at the time.

Dhofar Rebellion (1962?1975) I have heard it said victory in Dhofar was more important than defeat in Vietnam as it was the key to the Straits of Hormuz. One of the most important fighting forces in the Sultinate were Iranians.

Indonesia-Malaysia confrontation (1962?1966) Another colonial incident, but in the larger picture it was regarded as a Cold War confrontation. Nuclear weapons were moved to Singapore, V Bombers and Canberra aircraft used both Singapore and Malaya as bases to practice. 48 nuclear weapons were deployed to the area.

Northern Ireland Troubles (1969-2007) After four tours, I am just glad there is peace.

Cod War Confrontation (1975?1976) Could have been an opera written by Gilbert and Sullivan.

Falklands War (1982) Completely justified and a 'just in time' save for the Navy from the cuts being devised by Johm Nott.

The First Gulf War (1990?1991) Totally justified use of force.

The Bosnian War (1995?1996) I found my contempt for the UN while deployed here.

The Kosovo War (1999) I was quite happy that good sense prevailed here from our Div commander, as Wesley Clarke told us to retake Pristina Airport from Russian Spetnez and Airborne forces, but we had a good game of football instead. As for the policy, not Bill Clinton's greatest foreign policy moves.

Iraqi no-fly zones (1991-2003) Protecting vulnerable refugees good job well done.

Sierra Leone Civil War (2000) A very creditable foreign policy success.

[mockney piers]

Was going to fisk the list myself, but good job well done.

By and large agree on virtually all other points though 'not our finest hour' is underplaying that one a tad and the Mau Mau suppression also needs the word shame or stain attached to it.

On Korea I think that theory does the Truman administration too much credit. I think the cold war resulted from a lack of imagination rather than cunning plan, but there you go.

Would also dispute no fly zones. We didn't help vulnerable refugees from iraqi gunships while they were suppressing a revolt we encouraged to divert troops and attention from Kuwait, then left to die in their hundreds of thousands. It was also a means to remind Saddam of his place in the order of things while we condemned hundreds more thousands to die from lack of medical supplies that Albright famously said was 'worth it'; signing up to that policy (not ours by creation admittedly) again not our finest hour ;)

[macroban]

# Iraq (1928-1936)

# Aden (1963-1967)

[mockney piers]

Oh and Bosnian War Unfinest Hour is a must read, it'll put the tories up there with the UN for you, though from what I've been able to discern of you so far, a phrase involving grandmothers and eggs springs to mind.

[Santerme]

mockney piers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Oh and Bosnian War Unfinest Hour is a must read,

> it'll put the tories up there with the UN for you,

> though from what I've been able to discern of you

> so far, a phrase involving grandmothers and eggs

> springs to mind.

The UNPROFOR deployment was heartbreaking awful and the book you have highlighted is an excellent expose of the crippling behind the scenes Machovellian meanderings of the British Govt.

Once the dual key strategy was abolished things became much simpler, you could actually use weapons, then we became more effective.

As for the No Fly Zones, the southern one was delayed, IMHO politically motivated.

Provide Comfort, and Northern Watch were more successful as they were more immediate and Safe Haven was an excellent deployment of Royal Marines.

I have a personal interest in the latter operation my youngest brother, who is a still serving RM officer, was working, on exchange, with the US 10th Special Operations Group who were conducting operations in the mountains in the North of Iraq.

[macroban]

I hope this article in The Times is incorrect.

[Santerme]

I think that the disingenuous nature of this Govt is amplified by the spinning of sending 125 troops as reinforcements to Helmand, when they are actually Battlefield Casualty Replacements.

For every death we have reported, four are injured.

20 deaths this month means and additional 80 injured to a greater or lesser extent.

It is becoming a very expensive war.

[Marmora Man]

There is an additional, usually unremarked, fact. The quality and speed of response of the front line medical teams means that military men are surviving wounds that in the past would have been fatal. The downside of this positive development is that we see far more seriously injured personnel recovering and rehabilitating - and learning to cope and live with with losses of limbs and other traumatic injuries.

The SSAFA appeal this morning by Martin Bell was a salutary reminder of the need for continued charitable care and support to bolster what is being done by Gov't.

PLease don't confuse the MoD (a branch of Governent / Treasury) with its military personnel). I am certain that no member of the Armed FOrces would willingly seek to reduce the awards made to injured personnel - this drive is undoubtedly Treasury led.

[edhistory]

In several small towns in the USA I saw decals on shop windows offering on-going discounts to armed forces members and veterans.

Do we have a scheme like this in East Dulwich?

John K

[edhistory]

Anyone?

[bejam]

We are not American edhistory.

[????]

Indeeds not, we just remove our Armed Force Members from A&E in case they offend people....

[uncleglen]

After the Lee Rigby atrocity I think everyone keeps a low profile.

[Louisa]

This country is a disgrace. We should be worshipping at the feet of these brave people, not ushering them into a quiet zone so as not to offend other people.

Louisa.

[david_carnell]

Worshipping at the feet of people like this?

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/06/royal-marine-blackman-10-years-jail-taliban-murder

Pass.

John - you own a shop. Go for it. Make sure you've a large supply of Andy McNab books in stock.

[Louisa]

david_carnell Wrote:

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> Worshipping at the feet of people like this?

>

> http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/06/roy

> al-marine-blackman-10-years-jail-taliban-murder

>

> Pass.

>

> John - you own a shop. Go for it. Make sure you've

> a large supply of Andy McNab books in stock.

David_Carnell why would you pick ONE extreme horrible example out of thousands of good service people who serve their country with distinction, to justify a ridiculous politically correct policy enacted in a hospital where EVERYONE should be welcome? These people lay down their lives for this country and you find one bad example to justify this sort of policy? Maybe if we are playing by those rules we should ban members of parliament who voted in favour of the illegal Iraq war from publicly expressing their political views in future too?

Louisa.

[bejam]

Soldiers are no more or less worthy of deification than any other public servant. I genuinely fail to understand the utter lunacy of this mindset and the apparent surgical removal of all rational thought.

[Ron70]

bejam Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Soldiers are no more or less worthy of deification

> than any other public servant. I genuinely fail to

> understand the utter lunacy of this mindset and

> the apparent surgical removal of all rational

> though

Great that you don't think soldiers deserve gratitude over and above any other public servant... Good for you.. I'm guessing you've never been to war? If not, give it a go. I'm pretty sure the experience would change your opinion.

[????]

david_carnell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Worshipping at the feet of people like this?

>

> http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/06/roy

> al-marine-blackman-10-years-jail-taliban-murder

>

> Pass.

>

> John - you own a shop. Go for it. Make sure you've

> a large supply of Andy McNab books in stock.

yup they are all horrible...

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/mold-tesco-attack-trial-ex-9504828

[Ron70]

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