Syringe Exchange/Methadone Services: Crystal Palace Rd

[Ant]

Fine posts Nutty, Bawdy and Ko. :)

[Narnia]

I haven't read all this thread but I do know, as my boy used to attend the after school club, that at that time (several years ago) the DMC were trying to buy most the land next door to build an extension. As the club provided a very good service for working parents especially and the kids, there were various meetings organised to oppose this. If this is part of the current plan then I would oppose it regardless of what they built there. I have no reason to believe the DMC is a charity.

[Keef]

Ganapati, no it's not right next door, I was taking the pee... Not that I think it would really matter if it was.

Anyway, I would like to say that I agree with the points above that this should be something that is open to proper and transparent debate, and everyone should have their say. This is just an internet forum, and no one said that a decision would be reached from this. However, there's no harm in people starting a debate around the subject.

I am all for reasoned arguement, but I do hope that this idea isn't shelved completely due to close minded people that have no real idea about addiction.

[Ganapati]

When I read Ko's very wise postings it makes me laugh to think we've all got hot under the collar about this. DMC probably is just tacking on an additional revenue stream, and probably no one will even know it's a needle exchange, or very few will. Anyway, still should be open and transparent about it.

[ednerd]

I won't pretend to have the profound understanding of addiction of other forum members, nor the entirely selfless ability to put the needs of drug addicts above my own desire to raise my family in a pleasant and safe area.

The fact is that there is a clear association between drug addiction and anti-social/ criminal behaviour (although, clearly not all addicts are criminals). I am not against such a facility per se, and agree that the steps Ko has outlined are required. Nonetheless, in order for me to change my ?nasty selfish? position, the evidence to show that

a) this facility is necessary in our area,

b) that negative implications for local residents are likely to be negligible, and

c) that the location is the most appropriate available,

would need to be extremely compelling.

[JDR]

Mmm, interesting debate. Maybe the main point of which seems to have gotton lost!

We won't be making the decision and my understanding is that BARA and bawdy nan were trying to inform those people interested about this so that they would be able to put forward their comments (though probably objections from what I've seen on here) to the appropriate people. I live in Peckham so its no-where near me, though my daughter is on the waiting list for nursery and it is my GP. We should all be able to represent our views once we know in more detail what is being proposed and how they propose to minimise risks to other residents.

Personally one of my main concerns would be the loss of revenue to other local pharmacies such as Maceys and co-op which are both well established and offer a good range of services which I would genuinely miss if they were lost due to becoming financially unviable. As an area we should consider all of these things as its what makes it a nice area to live in.

Again as a Peckham resident though I rather seriously resent that my children are potentially less 'worthy' for being protected from danger/menace (whatever peoples perception of the danger), particularly as one of the main reasons I can't afford to live in east dulwich is because I'm one the people who decided to accept lower wages by working for the NHS to help provide these services. Appologies in advance of my being shot down by any number of people but sometimes ED needs to remember its a part of south london and not a posh ghetto without the gates!

[AllforNun]

Mmmm maybe the point is there should be no discussion and why should there be one? and what is with the risk assesment? The entire area around Center Point in london is basically an unofficial area to deal Heroin. Stand outside the Astoria and actually open your eyes and see what you see. That is the problem really people do not want to see. Having a debate forces people to confront an issue that few are capable of dealing with rationally.

Heroin addiction itself is anti social, but most addicts are pretty helpless and generally want to avoid contact with people. Rather like the old saying about spiders "they are more scared of you than you are of them".

There are some very sophisticated arguments going on here but I think they only serve to mask people's real fear; being confronted by a broken human spirit.

[Ko]

Declan Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I haven't read all this thread but I do know, as

> my boy used to attend the after school club, that

> at that time (several years ago) the DMC were

> trying to buy most the land next door to build an

> extension. As the club provided a very good

> service for working parents especially and the

> kids, there were various meetings organised to

> oppose this. If this is part of the current plan

> then I would oppose it regardless of what they

> built there. I have no reason to believe the DMC

> is a charity.

This again is being talked about by residents - a lot remember about past wrangles with the DMC. At the time, the DMC were after the land at the Community Centre. Which, in my opinion, wasn't really the DMC 'working with the community'....

The community needed the facilities provided by the After-School Club. Also they wanted their children to continue to attend the Community Centre's evening activities.

There was also the campaign a couple of years against the closure of the Community Centre. I wonder if the DMC backed the campaign to keep the Community Centre open???

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

UPDATE - I went to the Dulwich Medical Centre yesterday for a smear test and while the nurse was poking around, decided to ask her about the new pharmacy.

What surprised me was that they already have a special-ist addiction treatment clinic which is very well attended by all kinds of drug addicts at present. So where are all the drug pushers plying their trade and corrupting the local kids? I hung about for ages and failed to score.

Also the DMC have obly applied to dispense methadone, they don't want to have a needle exchange, so whoever is saying they do may need to check their facts.

And lastly, when I went to Macy's the chemist on Northcross Rd, they had a big wad of petitions against the DMC pharmacy on the counter by the till.

I wonder who will benefit the most if the DMC pharmacy proposal is blocked by the this witch hunt?

[Ted Max]

What surprised me was that they already have a special-ist addiction treatment clinic which is very well attended by all kinds of drug addicts at present. So where are all the drug pushers plying their trade and corrupting the local kids? I hung about for ages and failed to score.

Also the DMC have obly applied to dispense methadone, they don't want to have a needle exchange, so whoever is saying they do may need to check their facts.

This is the sort of information that would have come out if they had held the due consultation in the first place.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Suely the onus is on the person starting a petition to block something, to check what it is they are actually blocking and get their facts straight before they decide to whip everyone up into a frenzy and cause unwarranted fear.

[Ant]

Are they actually trying to block it, though, or just ensure that proper consultation was held? I've not been following too closely, but I assumed it was the latter.

Or are you talking about the petitions in Macey's? (And are they unrelated to BARA/this thread?)

Sorry, getting a little confused here.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

They have not posted the wording of the petition, but I got the impression they were trying to block it altogether.

I just wondered how much consultation is obligatory for this. If it just a planning issue, aren't you within your rights to just post a notice on a few trees near to your premises?

If it's a local government inclusivity issue, then there may be more consultation needed, but if they already have a drug treatment centre there, how much consultation would they be expected to undertake regarding methadone dispensing?

[Keef]

I thought Macys worked in partnership with the DMC... Talk about biting the hand that feeds!

[macroban]

So, in summary, the complaint is about opening a 100-hour pharmacy without prior consultation.

[Catcher-in-the-rye]

I've seen the application and it cleary states that they intend to operate a needle exchange.

[bawdy-nan]

Hello CWALD

I've checked the facts very thoroughly indeed and would love to hear a full and detailed plan from the practice about what hey are planning and how they intend to manage any risks (perceived or otherwise.

Its not a planning issue its to do with the PCT. The surgery have planning permission to build a single storey building but don't, I think, require permission from Southwark Council on what services they provide within the building.

The PCT are obliged by the regulations to consult and allow 45 days from infomring "interested parties" for objections to be raised. I posted a link to the regulatory documents earlier in the thread.

The only way that the surgery can open a pharmacy is under the 100 hour exemption, this is because the PCT say there is no need for an additional pharmacy. The area is already well served by other pharmacies. I've seen the petition in Macey's (I popped in there today and they are indeed campaigning against the proposals rather than simply for consultation. I can understand their position - their livlihood is under threat).

Under the 100 hour exemption they will be expected to provide a needle exchange.

The documentation from the PCT which has now been provided to "interested parties" (ie local community groups including Gumboots nursery) clearly states that the application includes needle exchange services. Perhaps the nurse you saw wasn't quite up to speed on this.

There are certianly mixed messages coming out of the practice, I certainly wasn't aware of the addiction services they provide already but they seem to tell a different story to whoever they speak to.

[Ko]

ChavWivaLawDegree Wrote:

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> Also the DMC have obly applied to dispense

> methadone, they don't want to have a needle

> exchange>

The Southwark Needs Assessment (which the PCT is referring people to) clearly states "Any pharmacy applying under the 100 hours a week exemption will be expected to provide needle exchange services". I myself spoke to the PCT specifically about the DMC application and the PCT referred me to the needs assessment (they directed me to it on their website) and I asked the PCT whether DMC would have to provide a needle exchange and the PCT said yes. The PCT couldn't tell me much else.

So either the PCT is wrong, or the DMC is wrong.

Yes, I can see my confidence levels rising rapidly - not.

Also, there was a recent article in the Southwark News about a needle exchange proposed on Heaton Rd (Nunhead/Peckham borders). Ther is a quote there from Jane Fryer (the Medical Director of Southwark Health and Social Care), stating:

?When an application is received we advise existing local pharmacists of the application to get their feedback. In this case, this feedback together with any other submissions received, including the petition will be considered when our vacancy panel meets to consider the application. A decision will then be made in line with national regulations over whether a pharmacy can open. The panel will not be making any decisions on the detail of the services that the pharmacy could provide at this early stage. However, as with all new pharmacies and any other service we are seeking to develop, we will be making sure that the services it provides meets the needs of the local community as a whole.?

Seems they will approve pharmacy first and then later decide the services (eg needle exchange etc). Not sure if this allows a risk assessment (about suitability of site for such services) to be done - nothing has been mentioned about this and the PCT didn't know either. Also, once the application for a new pharmacy has been approved, can the services be added to or changed without any further consultation?? The PCT said to me that it was also confused over how things were decided. I hope the PCT is clearer when it is giving advice to the GP surgeries...!

[Ko]

ChavWivaLawDegree Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> > And lastly, when I went to Macy's the chemist on

> Northcross Rd, they had a big wad of petitions

> against the DMC pharmacy on the counter by the

> till.

>

> I wonder who will benefit the most if the DMC

> pharmacy proposal is blocked

I've seen the petitions at the Co-op Pharmacy and at the Northcross Rd pharmacy. They said they fear that a couple of them could be forced to close if the new pharmacy goes ahead. That could be a possibility I guess because Southwark is saying that there is no need for any more pharmacies in the area.

IMO - There is a difference between 'benefitting' (which the owners of the new pharmacy may be seeking to do) and 'saving your own livelihood'.

[Ko]

Keef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I thought Macys worked in partnership with the

> DMC... Talk about biting the hand that feeds!

I see your point Keef. But if the DMC pharmacy leads to one or more of the other existing pharmacies closing (see my comment above), they won't be working in partnership anymore because Maceys won't still be around!

[macroban]

I would prefer to go to the doctor's surgery and collect my prescription at the same time rather than walk the streets to find a dispensing chemist that is open.

Sounds like progress to me.

[BARA]

BARA- catching up on all the debate that our petition has raised. Ko and BawdyNan are both correct - 1 too have seen the letter from the PCT who should have consulted with a wider audience than they did. I have been told that one of the DMC patients went and discussed with a DMC staff member re pharmacy and needle exchange etc. Either the staff are defending their employers (or protecting their job- but who would blame them) or that they are genuinely being kept in the dark - that they only spoke of the pharmacy, nothing was mentioned of the drug rehabilitation services.

Regardless of very diverse opinions as to whether a needle exchange etc should or should not be provided, one of the key issues that has emerged is the role of the PCT and its responsibility towards local communities when seeking to provide a service which is highly contraversal.

BARA have been co working with another organisation and have produced a press release which details the history of this application - hopefully after the interest shown by the media, that this is reproduced in full in the local press. You should be able to see the inadequencies of the 2005 Act and the seemingly little regard given to public opinion. I met my local beat bobby on Sunday afternoon, and having known him for a number of years, I mentioned the DMC's proposals and asked what was the Police's response. His first words were ' next to a nursery!' He was unaware of this proposal and thought his colleagues in the Safer Neighbourhood Team would be equally in the dark - one wonders who the PCT does actually communicate with! The Police are usually contacted in planning issues, and as the SAFER NEIGHBOURHOOD POLICE - the bobbies on the beat - footslogging the streets of East Dulwich, surely they know the area and its problems better than anyone.

[macroban]

This still whiffs of a witch-hunt.

In 1959 I saw a black cat in Darrell Road.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

So if there is not going to be a needle exchange and there is already an addiction clinic running,which was so unobtrusive no one even knew it existed, what is all the fuss about?

What are the controversial plans you mention?

What are you really campaigning about?

[BARA]

The fact that a needle exchange proposal is highly contraversal - I refer to the Heaton Road/Rye Lane proposed needle exchange under the newly built flats (as reported in Southwark News early September) and the Badsworth Street SE5 proposals. Both got good press coverage and plenty of divided opinions. The EDF site is a good example how many people are more tolerant of those who have 'different lifestyles and how many consider drug addicts to be 'scum'